Down the JAVA trail
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That's the crux of the problem indeed. It is in fact amazing how well NetRexx has managed to remain highly compatible for so long. - Saludos / Kind regards, David Requena -----Original Message----- From: George Hovey <[hidden email]> Sender: [hidden email] Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 16:02:56 To: IBM Netrexx<[hidden email]> Reply-To: IBM Netrexx <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] Down the JAVA trail _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] |
On RexxLA and NetRexx (WAS: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] Down the JAVA trail)
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In reply to this post by Aviatrexx
Chip,
Unfortunately I can not fully agree. Please find my comments bellow. To RexxLA members here: would any of you object if I also posted this to RexxLA's list? El 09/10/2010 0:49, Chip Davis escribió: My mother was not by nature a talented cook. She depended on recipes from friends, relatives, books, magazines, and the occasional leak from a prestigious restaurant. Unfortunately, she invariably modified the recipe somewhat from the original, regardless of its provenance. Well, you're equating all of us here to poor cooks. Sorry but while your mother might have been one of these, there are plenty of brilliant ones; able to consistently enhance existing recipes or even developing their own ones from scratch. I know, mum is one of the latter group :-) Mike is a great language designer and programmer implementer, sure. The languages he gave us are outstanding prove to that fact. Surely he is also human and could at some point take some non-optimal decisions. Want an example? NetRexx refuses to compile a class with just private constructors: Error: Class BlaBlaBlah cannot be constructed.... That is not only untrue as Main(args=String[]) or any other static method of the class can construct instances of such a class without any problem. But it also prevents us to properly create a Singleton in NetRexx! That strikes me as an instance of the compiler unsuccessfully trying to over-smart the programmer... We do not yet have access to the NetRexx source code, and when we do get it we will need to do a fair amount of organizational work to make it "open" and available to everyone. There will be change management processes to establish, teams to populate, build machines to create, documentation to update, copyright notices to change, etc., etc., etc. I'm starting to get bored of reading that argument: Look, this is RexxLA's duty. Just wait for us to get our hands on the compiler sources and at that moment we'll start thinking about it. Then we'll do some (long) housekeeping work and, maybe in a year, we'll release the very same thing you all already have. Then, finally, we'll start some black magic ritual to try bothering our hibernated TTELDs into looking at possible directions the language might be taken on in a far, far future. To which, as a RexxLA member, I have to say: Look, RexxLA today remains highly irrelevant for all things NetRexx related. It has (since 2 and a half years ago!) an appointment to get the compiler sources at some undetermined moment. This is also an unilateral statement by RexxLA, no word from IBM so far. It has acquired a relevant domain name which remains off-line so far. And.... well... that is all. Some day all will e good and well, take our word. In all this time: what preparation work has been done? what resources have been allocated? what internal discussions have been going on? what pieces of infrastructure have been being designed in advance? where is RexxLA's sample code repository? where is RexxLA's components repository? where is RexxLA's bug reporting infrastructure? even when not being fixable now, having a known bugs list would be a big head start when time comes. FAQs? Tutorials? Third party tools listing? Did RexxLA offer Dion to host his NetRexx FAC content prior to its regrettable going into oblivion? NetRexx at once tutorial maybe? Nothing, nothing, nothing! Not even relevant NetRexx related discussions are held at the members list. RexxLA today could be a central hub for the NetRexx community. Much could have been accomplished with regard to preparation work. Work which would have remained totally relevant and useful to the community even if IBM were to withdraw tomorrow from its former commitment to open source release. If that were the case and a proper community had been built, producing a new, alternative, implementation would be a feasible project. As things are now, we'd back right at square one :-( In other words: RexxLA might have created/re-lived the now defunct NetRexx community all on its own. Instead it choose to remain in that kind of complacent attitude we're all familiar with now: "it all will come naturally when we are in control of the sources" That, indeed, is why people like me build sites like netrexx-misc.kenai.com, without much success, I must admit. The fact remains: that should be RexxLA's duty if it aspires to have any kind of audience when (in X years from now) it is ready to release its first new NetRexx release. And, oh, I see it coming... RexxLA currently does not have the resources, it's a volunteer association and blah, blah, blah... So? Will those resources magically come into being when we have the compiler sources? Need additional resources? Just start looking for them right now! - Start offering some of the services listed above. That will surely bring some further members to the RexxLA - Ask for donations with a clear, NetRexx relevant, goal. In other words: actually DO something. Most people on this list sees RexxLA as some organization trying to milk 24 bucks out of them for the privilege of participating in a mailing list which is not even very related to their main interest. While I don't share this view, I can fully understand it. If RexxLA was Kevin Kostner I would tell him: "Just build it and they will come" :-)
Oh, Chip, *there are* bugs. Any piece of software has its share of them. Surely the fact that there is no proper place to report bugs plays a big role in them not being uncovered. Want a couple bugs from the top of my mind? - Put in a trace instruction followed by something not being "all", "off", "results" or "methods" and behold the compiler crash (for some unknown reason I keep putting "trace values" when meaning "trace results") - When a "USES" modifier is used, static variables of the used class are recognized everywhere but in a parse template. So "parse (used_class_var) foo bar" wont work. As stated previously, nothing prevents RexxLA from having some bug reporting infrastructure in place. Bug could be reported, discussed and filed if accepted as proper bugs. My primary point is (as it was to my mother) *don't change anything until you truly understand how it was intended to work*. Then you will have a base from which to make knowledgeable updates. In which way are we (RexxLA?) "still building the community" Chip? Wouldn't it be more exact to say: "Were are waiting for source availability (which might never come) to *start* building the NetRexx community (or doing anything NetRexx related for that matter)." I keep repeating this like a prayer at the desert. Hey people, lets start moving. There is much we can accomplish without sources!
RexxLA's netrexx.org strikes me as the perfect place to host such an effort. We could also use some help from those dormant TTELDs residing at that "independent, non-profit organization dedicated to promoting the use and understanding of the Rexx programming language."
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In reply to this post by Kermit Kiser
But it's not "the same use case"! Java has no equivalent for NetRexx "import pkgname." NetRexx Java ======= ==== import classname import classname import pkgname import pkgname.* import pkgname. CANNOT DO THIS IN JAVA See? there is no real way in which a common syntax could be shared. If you where to allow an "*" after the dot in NetRexx, you would be accomplishing a different thing than in java. --- Saludos / Kind regards. David Requena El 09/10/2010 1:00, Kermit Kiser escribió: Your explanation, like David's, is very technical and no doubt technically correct. But to me those explanations violate some basic principles behind Rexx: _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by George Hovey-2
Hmm.. I'm not sure what you're referring here George. Could you help refreshing my memory please? :-) --- Saludos / Kind regards. David Requena El 09/10/2010 2:46, George Hovey escribió: That sounds right to me. How about some kind of rough organization of the effort, eg a separate thread to discuss just the installation issue, that doesn't meander off in other directions? It might have a title that clearly implies this, like "Please, NetRexx Installation Issues ONLY". Didn't David Requena's group experiment produce a result of significance to this issue? He might start by discussing the implications of his result. _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Jeff Hennick
Agreed. My vote goes to http://wiki.netrexx.org
--- Saludos / Kind regards. David Requena El 09/10/2010 3:03, Jeff Hennick escribió: I'm thinking it is time for a Wiki, rather than a news-list-group organization, for these topics. Unless there is some all-thoughtful person with lots of time who wishes to be "moderator." _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by FreeFall
In absence of wiki.netrexx.org I'm prepared to offer http://kenai.com/projects/netrexx-misc/pages/Home which is of course just a wiki. Anyone interested just register and ask for wiki editing access. There is 3 tutorials I'm preparing which will go there in a near future: - Setting up a NetRexx development environment with jEdit and ant - Setting up a NetRexx development environment with emacs and ant - Building a non-trivial NetRexx GUI application with NetBeans from the ground up. Will announce here when ready, of course :-) --- Saludos / Kind regards. David Requena El 09/10/2010 10:12, Connor Birch escribió: Wiki sounds good. More than one 'document' sounds better. Ie the documentation that we'll need, the learning pathway, could be a wiki document. This could either include installation issues, or an installation guide could be a separate wiki (to become a chapter in the eventual comprehensive guide). _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by David Requena
David,
1) Separate thread... It was just a half-baked idea -- wiki sounds like a much better one. However, except for reading zillions of WIKIPEDIA pages, I'm not familiar with the technology. I see googling WIKI WIKI deals with that issue. I'll study that so I can understand the terms of the discussion. 2) Experiment... Your post "Your help please", Aug 30. On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 6:46 AM, David Requena <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by David Requena
Let me quickly react on some of the points below. My assurance as president of RexxLA, and as someone with an IBM employee number will probably be the closest to what this community will get in terms of promises. I still cannot comment on IBM internal processes, other than in the most generic terms: the open sourcing process proceeds and all is well. I can understand the anxiety. I felt this myself when Object Rexx was released to a limited team after the legal transfer. I managed not to complain too much, but some complaining was inevitable. You have, again, my promise that the very moment that it is legally allowed, you will have the source. On the other hand, you must agree that until we have the source, all plans and proposals are academic. If you do a whois on the netrexx.org domain, you can see that it was created on the 29th of Januari, 2004. It will tell you something about my planning horizon. The site has run for years without any significant hits. I took it down to prepare for the relaunch when the source of the language is available. Also, the project that wanted to create an alternative translator did not win massive support from the community. I agree that we need a wiki and a forum. Until now, there have been a very small number of improvement suggestions, and here I agree with Chip that most of those in the 1996 - now period have ended with the conclusion that it was allright how it was. I would not go as far as calling the things you mention 'bugs', but they need to be fixed. Note that I do not contribute if the discussion starts about whether NetRexx needs a counter++ (typing counter = counter + 1 is often one of the most relaxing moments of my day and I would not want to miss those). Let me see what I can do to start a wiki quickly on the netrexx.org domain. It will give us a means to plan, structure and organize until the day comes. For RexxLA, I would like to break the cycle of people complaining about what is done, and the the people actually doing something complaining that there is no-one to help. Of course you can post what you want to the RexxLA list - you are a member. For RexxLA, the release of the NetRexx source will bring about change. With ooRexx being available as its only product for a number of years, naturally the discussion has gravitated around that. For most members, the addition of NetRexx will be an expansion of the subjects that are discussed. RexxLA aims to be a forum of discussion, and action regarding, all things Rexx. Without RexxLA, there would be no open sourcing of any IBM Rexx product. With RexxLA, we have a point of focus for all discussion of all things regarding Rexx, them being System Rexx on z/OS, ooRexx, Regina, the Rexx I/O libary, the Rexx Compiler, the various libraries, the various API's, the effort of porting ooRexx to z/OS. All these need much more manpower and knowledge than is available. In itself, this seems enough reason to support RexxLA if you find these goals worthwhile. Of course, I do object about the "shaking 24 bucks out of" part, which misconstrues the goals of RexxLA somewhat. I have shown you the reason why NetRexx at the moment is not the number one discussion topic. You will appreciate the fact that for some of these products, IBM did a massive investment by having people in labs on salaries to create and support them for years and years. What we can do at the moment is taking inventory of the language, and design a structure in which to address our wishes and guarantee its future. These go beyond what has been mentioned on the list recently. We have wishes about the language and about the translator, see shortcomings, and are worried about JVM integration. Also, we need to discuss how much Java language developments (annotations, generics) need to influence NetRexx -if at all, and we can think about things as directly generating bytecode (which the interpreter part already does to some level) or retargeting to other environments, or even native code for some platforms. Another interesting field of research is how to re-integrate the currently not very compatible oo versions of Rexx. I am looking forward to good proposals for organisation of netrexx.org, volunteers to be on the language board, and people able to do the actual work on the sourcecode. If we look at what happened at ooRexx (under RexxLA supervision, but separate, open-to-all website, public sourgeforge project), there have not been an abundant number of volunteers that contribute. Interestingly, no one has volunteered yet in a formal way, and pledged their time for support. I have high hopes for NetRexx, but it must still be proven that we will get more people doing actual work. Let us all do our best and make sure we create this future. best regards, René Jansen. On 9 okt 2010, at 12:37, David Requena wrote:
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In reply to this post by Mike Cowlishaw
On 8 October 2010 23:33, Mike Cowlishaw <[hidden email]> wrote: --
Here here! Particularly the "incomprehensible Perl" (emphasis added) bit :-D. There may be "more than one way to do it", but emulating Perl isn't the answer. Alan. Can't tweet, won't tweet! _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email]
Alan
-- Needs more cowbell. |
Re: On RexxLA and NetRexx (WAS: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] Down the JAVA trail)
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In reply to this post by rvjansen
Rene,
This seems reasonable. It's especially gratifying that you feel we can contribute something positive without waiting for the source. One issue I haven't heard discussed is the "selling" (to put it crassly) of NetRexx. Chip Davis feels that there will be an influx of newbies after the issuance of the first open source release. Perhaps this is so, but I haven't heard the rationale. I suspect success will depend on making some explicit effort to bring NetRexx to the attention of the computing world. I know I'm talking through my hat here, because I've never promoted anything, but don't we have to do things like preparing press releases and knowing who to send them to? Of course, we must not do this until our house is in order -- that is, being pretty sure that our packaging of NetRexx won't disappoint. There is one thing you said that set off alarms in my head: ... we can think about things as
directly generating bytecode (which the interpreter part already does to
some level) or retargeting to other environments, or even native code
for some platforms. If memory serves, in Java's early days the principal complaint was slowness. I read more than one article saying that this would soon be cured by the arrival of native compilers. Variants on this advised adding an option to disable array index checking, which had been viewed with horror by those to whom efficiency was the be all and end all (mainly scientific users). Microsoft gleefully decide to "help" Java ("great language, bad platform") with their very own "enhanced" JVM which violated the Java spec. This stimulated creation of a "pure Java" alliance (IBM and others) to oppose pollution of Java. Somehow, Sun never got around to implementing either native compilers or the array idea. My understanding is that either would have meant the end of Java security, and put the lie to the claim that your Java program is secure no matter where it runs. Sun ultimately beat back Microsoft in a long running law suit, and we are all the better for it. Surely, NetRexx wants to offer this same assurance to users. I find TNL ambivalent on the subject of generating bytecode directly rather than through the intermediary of javac. Mike mentions considering doing so, but rejected that route because of incompatibilities with Java tools. Would it have been his preferred choice? I would very much like to hear our language giants discuss the pros and cons of removing javac from the chain. Finally you say Another interesting field of research is how to
re-integrate the currently not very compatible oo versions of Rexx. My initial reaction (of course, these are often wrong) is that there is no reason whatsoever to do so. Don't you expect NetRexx to become the preferred method of writing OO programs, with ooRexx considered a finished product except for users tied to it through some product they support? But I would like to see some Rexx find its way into NetRexx. On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 8:14 AM, René Jansen <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by George Hovey-2
El 09/10/2010 13:57, George Hovey escribió: David, hmm.. a collaborative content generating environment in which everyone can edit every document while the system keeps every document version on file. That together with a simple markup tag set which allows for good looking content with minimal effort. 2) Experiment... Oh, I see. Yes, that is part of one of my pet projects. This particular one is for a tool-kit for easy NetRexx compiler installation/use by newbies. Too many projects at once. Nothing seems to get out of the door. Ever :-(
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Re: On RexxLA and NetRexx (WAS: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] Down the JAVA trail)
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In reply to this post by George Hovey-2
On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 3:35 PM, George Hovey <[hidden email]> wrote:
I agree. Generating native code is very anti-java and the wrong way to do things. What makes NetRexx useful is the ability to generate standard, cross-platform Java code. We live in a world of 1Ghz+ CPUs and systems with 1GB of RAM as the minium configuration. The "Java is slow" argument is no longer valid. Take a look at the Vuze bittorrent client or jDownloader... those are popular network-centric applications, written in cross-platform java that rival C++ apps. FC _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] |
Re: On RexxLA and NetRexx (WAS: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] Down the JAVA trail)
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In reply to this post by rvjansen
René,
Thank you for your long reply. I feel my main point didn't get through though. Every time Ï wrote "we" it was like in "we, the RexxLA". So will I be doing in this post. I support the RexxLA, I'm a member, I renewed and I'll keep doing so as long as I can. But RexxLA projects some distinct image to people not inside, in particular to NetRexx people. It is totally understandable why most people feel like they do about the $24. I stated I don't share the view but then, I'm a member no longer seeing the organization from outside. Clearly the public image of any organization is its own responsibility. Lets see. Today when someone hears something about NetRexx and becomes interested and starts scrubbing the net for more, he'll find: - IBM's old website. Not updated since 5 years ago. Most of the links are dead over there. - Lots of dead google search results (since geocites is no more). - A couple very old magazine articles on NetRexx - Some long stagnating enthusiast websites not updated since the 90s - Some (3) current websites (Mine, Kermit's and Thomas' new one on ReyC) - When that poor soul gets to RexxLA (first google hit at page four), he will find exactly 47 words in one heading and 2 sentences. Of course I take your word: NetRexx will be open sourced. I believe it. But I'm a bit afraid in what would happen if not. Would RexxLA continue to neglect the language? Is RexxLA only interested in NetRexx if it is open sourced? Whatever the answer to these questions, the point here is what impression we, the RexxLA, are giving to the outside world. And BTW. A compiler crash with a NullPointerException stack trace instead of a diagnostic stating I used at unrecognised keyword *IS A BUG*. Without palliatives. I could identify it just because I repeatedly commit this particular programming error. --- Saludos / Kind regards. David Requena El 09/10/2010 14:14, René Jansen escribió:
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In reply to this post by David Requena
On 10/9/2010 8:14 AM, René Jansen wrote:
> My assurance as president of RexxLA, and as someone with an IBM employee number will probably be the closest to what this community will get in terms of promises. I still cannot comment on IBM internal processes, other than in the most generic terms: the open sourcing process proceeds and all is well. René, It is my understanding that you are the only RexxLA negotiator dealing with IBM. But if you are both RexxLA President and also being paid by IBM, how can there possibly be "negotiations"? Aren't you in a conflict of interest situation? Surely it must be difficult for you to "serve two masters"? It is interesting that other than Chip (who is not a current board member), none of the other RexxLA board members have participated on this list. Are they involved in the negotiations at all to monitor the progress and provide support to you so that you are not conflicted? If not, does this conflict explain the delay? I'm glad that you feel that "all is well", but unfortunately some of us don't agree. I would judge the open sourcing process as woefully late. It is two and a half years (30 months) and counting. Bill Fenlason -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web LIVE Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology - http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by alansam
On 10/9/2010 1:26 PM, Alan Sampson wrote:
We could go the other way and emulate Forth ... or APL ... or <gasp> J. Why, I'm working on a Forth project currently -- but (I think) my APL/J days are over. Tom. (In Windy Chi-Town) _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] |
Re: On RexxLA and NetRexx (WAS: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] Down the JAVA trail)
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In reply to this post by billfen
Bill,
Negotiation is a loose term. IBM 100% owns NetRexx. They can do anything they want with it. RexxLA is not offering to buy NetRexx, nor offer IBM any sort of quid pro quo arrangement. Since nothing of value is being given to IBM, and nothing of value is being taken from RexxLA, I don't see that there is a conflict. René is guiding NetRexx through all the obstacles at IBM to getting release as open source. Since this is not a billable project within IBM, you are counting on a lot of people to give their free time to our benefit. I don't know the exact process, but I bet it involves reviewing all of the code to make sure that IBM does in fact own the code, that the code is free from any other restrictions, such as copyright, patent, or trade secret. There is probably a legal review that is under taken. If I remember correctly when IBM open sourced Object Rexx, we didn't get part of it because it was encumbered by copyrights that belonged to other companies. Bruce On Oct 9, 2010, at 2:25 PM, [hidden email] wrote: > On 10/9/2010 8:14 AM, René Jansen wrote: >> My assurance as president of RexxLA, and as someone with an IBM employee > number will probably be the closest to what this community will get in > terms of > promises. I still cannot comment on IBM internal processes, other than in > the > most generic terms: the open sourcing process proceeds and all is well. > > René, > > It is my understanding that you are the only RexxLA negotiator dealing with > IBM. > But if you are both RexxLA President and also being paid by IBM, how can > there > possibly be "negotiations"? Aren't you in a conflict of interest > situation? > Surely it must be difficult for you to "serve two masters"? > > It is interesting that other than Chip (who is not a current board member), > none > of the other RexxLA board members have participated on this list. Are they > involved in the negotiations at all to monitor the progress and provide > support > to you so that you are not conflicted? If not, does this conflict explain > the > delay? > > I'm glad that you feel that "all is well", but unfortunately some of us > don't > agree. I would judge the open sourcing process as woefully late. > > It is two and a half years (30 months) and counting. > > Bill Fenlason > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web LIVE – Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology - > http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ibm-netrexx mailing list > [hidden email] > _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Mike Cowlishaw
For those advocating making NetRexx look more like Java, I say you
are going the wrong direction: Go tell the Java folks to make it
look more like Rexx! Both win.
On 10/9/2010 2:33 AM, Mike Cowlishaw wrote:
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In reply to this post by David Requena
Sheesh! I did not mean to start a new world war. I can survive with the
existing NetRexx import syntax. Someday I might even be able to
remember it when I try to convert some Java snippet to NetRexx code.
But I would still like to have "import pkgname.*" work in NetRexx so there is one less thing to worry about when translating Java examples which I guarantee you that NetRexx programmers often need to do. And I don't understand your "use case" objection since your table shows clearly that the "import pkgname.*" use case we are discussing is also in NetRexx as "import pkgname". Likewise Mike's objection about pattern matching syntax makes no sense to me since there are no pattern matching expressions in the Java import statement - simply a user friendly way to show that multiple classes are being imported. It is not obvious to me from the NetRexx syntax for "import pkgname" whether I am importing a class or a set of classes since they look the same. Adding support for the Java syntax with ".*" might be a special case which complicates things a little for the compiler but it makes it much easier for the programmer to see what is going on and also to convert Java sample programs into NetRexx. And to those who hate it just because Java uses that syntax - "get over it". I hate Java syntax too but there is no way that simple change is going to ruin NetRexx. I still say lets add it to the list of possible enhancements and then vote on it when the time comes to start upgrading NetRexx. -- Kermit On 10/9/2010 3:44 AM, David Requena wrote:
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Re: Down the JAVA trail
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In reply to this post by David Requena
I do confirm this post!
Thomas. ========================================================= Am 09.10.2010 10:20, schrieb David Requena: > That's the crux of the problem indeed. > It is in fact amazing how well NetRexx has managed to remain highly compatible for so long. > > - > Saludos / Kind regards, > David Requena > > -----Original Message----- > From: George Hovey<[hidden email]> > Sender: [hidden email] > Date: Fri, 8 Oct 2010 16:02:56 > To: IBM Netrexx<[hidden email]> > Reply-To: IBM Netrexx<[hidden email]> > Subject: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] Down the JAVA trail > > _______________________________________________ > Ibm-netrexx mailing list > [hidden email] > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ibm-netrexx mailing list > [hidden email] > > -- Thomas Schneider Projects ReyC & LOGOS on www.KENAI.com _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email]
Tom. (ths@db-123.com)
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In reply to this post by Kermit Kiser
I can see your point (I convert Java programs, too), but Mike has given cogent reasons why this is not such a hot idea. Instead, how about a clear diagnostic explaining the situation, maybe even citing chapter and verse in TNL? [This is a hobby horse of mine: diagnostics going considerably beyond what we are used to seeing.]
On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 8:57 PM, Kermit Kiser <[hidden email]> wrote:
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