Eclipse compiler and NetRexx build
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Bill,
thanks for your answer. My reactions inline; I left out the part where we alreay agree. > I would have suspected that if a company locks down their systems, > they do not allow the installation of either jars or executable > binaries. Since I have been primarily a home user for so long, I'll > take your word for it, but some actual statistics would be > interesting. NetRexx is in this regard in the same position as Rexx always was; large companies, the ones which infrastructure I know, and what I hear from friend and colleagues in the field, do not realise what their is and do not appreciate the glue that keeps their companies together. That glue is shell script, vbs and Rexx. I think IBM at one time had official Rexx applications at one time; if we would take away Rexx now the world's fate would be worse than Y2K, asteroids and the ice age predictions together. (OK, maybe I exaggerate, but very many systems of very many financial institutions and utilities would fail). There is also NetRexx under the radar, some of it is stuff that I helped people with when they were in a bind. So if you are going to ask companies if you can install a compiler, they surely would say no, but on systems that have shell, perl, awk, python and ruby on them, and a company maintained and serviced JRE, the problem cannot be that big. In this regard, the semantics of what an 'installation' denotes and what a file added to a home directory means is very relevant. > Obviously you have had some bad experiences with Eclipse and perhaps > other IDE's. I think an obsession with the command line approach > inhibits "work smart, not hard", but no doubt you disagree, and you Yes, I have experience 'with them all'. My professional opinion is, that if you are using one in a mid-size project, you need an extra team member to handle IDE and version control issues. At some point in your project, near the deadline, they (IDE's) will stop reading in their own artifacts (and funnily enough I am the one that needs to fix them and read and patch horrible xml or binaries in hex); they all have a scheme to 'conquer the world' by producing needless artifacts that they, and only they (and only in some particular release) support, undoing the effect of using ant and Java, generic SQL and portable user interfaces. For a long time, you could only reasonably do swt with Eclipse - I heard that changed. I sometimes do data modelling in Eclipse - and I always have to fall back to older versions only half a year later or so to read in my product. I had NetBeans change the rules in a new version - no more class in source directories, no more integration with make, and lose compatibility with their own user interface definitions. We froze the version and dropped it for the next release, redoing the GUI at a cost of a standstill in app functionality. Also, I don't get the 'refactoring' and 'easy api lookup' arguments - most of the time I am fairly stable in designs (you should model and design first - honestly) and I know the API before I start typing - I have stared with amazement at youngsters who just pressed characters after the dot to see if the type of their variable offered some api hints to continue their effort, which they only vaguely understood anyway. With regards to NetRexx support, I have a neutral position; the advantage is that I do not have to choose. If an IDE supports the uptake of NetRexx, I am all for it. I would love to see NetBeans support on the level of your Eclipse plugin. > To each his own, but in what way are the debuggers slow? In the JDE, > if I have a problem with something, I can set breakpoints instantly > by > clicking on the code lines, hit F11 to debug, trace the flow, look at I admit my view might have been originated in previous times with slower machines and older releases. Although the server side code, and the ports issues with remote JVM debugging are real. Banking systems log, for this reason, just about everything to text files, even until they are I/O bound - when using the wrong logging API, like System.out.println. > well as debugging. If Eclipse and NetBeans are on the wrong track, > why are they so widely used? Hmm - 50 million Elvis fans cannot be wrong? (I like Elvis btw, specially the song 'Polk Salad Annie'.) The problem here is, when GUI and IDE took over, there stopped to be significant statistics of how much productivity was lost. Sure, any kid can configure a Windows box nowadays, as opposed to do a stage-1 OS/VS2 IO gen. But if out of 100 boxes (of which onky 20 are needed), 90 have a different configuration (codepages, service packs, powershell configs, vbs releases, office patches) what have we gained. My take is, this is losing companies money in a terrible way, and would offset offshoring if handled correctly). Our colleagues in India do the same, and sometimes even more so. My take is, hire one crack old guy and leave the 40 you think you need to think of new things to do with the business instead of doing IT admin. > What do you suggest I do that I'm not doing? I would like you to check your Eclipse things into version management at Kenai - first using the public repository and then, when granted commit rights, the main repository. If you would like. >> best regards, >> >> René. >> _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
Re: Eclipse compiler and NetRexx build
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# So René, I guess we can put you down as a MAYBE on Eclipse? # export MAYBE="NOT NO, BUT HELL NO!!!" On Sep 5, 2012, at 6:39 AM, rvjansen <[hidden email]> wrote: > Bill, > > thanks for your answer. My reactions inline; I left out the part where we alreay agree. > >> I would have suspected that if a company locks down their systems, >> they do not allow the installation of either jars or executable >> binaries. Since I have been primarily a home user for so long, I'll >> take your word for it, but some actual statistics would be >> interesting. > > NetRexx is in this regard in the same position as Rexx always was; large companies, the ones which infrastructure I know, and what I hear from friend and colleagues in the field, do not realise what their is and do not appreciate the glue that keeps their companies together. That glue is shell script, vbs and Rexx. I think IBM at one time had official Rexx applications at one time; if we would take away Rexx now the world's fate would be worse than Y2K, asteroids and the ice age predictions together. (OK, maybe I exaggerate, but very many systems of very many financial institutions and utilities would fail). There is also NetRexx under the radar, some of it is stuff that I helped people with when they were in a bind. So if you are going to ask companies if you can install a compiler, they surely would say no, but on systems that have shell, perl, awk, python and ruby on them, and a company maintained and serviced JRE, the problem cannot be that big. In this regard, the semantics of what an 'installation' denotes and what a file added to a home directory means is very relevant. > > >> Obviously you have had some bad experiences with Eclipse and perhaps >> other IDE's. I think an obsession with the command line approach >> inhibits "work smart, not hard", but no doubt you disagree, and you > > Yes, I have experience 'with them all'. My professional opinion is, that if you are using one in a mid-size project, you need an extra team member to handle IDE and version control issues. At some point in your project, near the deadline, they (IDE's) will stop reading in their own artifacts (and funnily enough I am the one that needs to fix them and read and patch horrible xml or binaries in hex); they all have a scheme to 'conquer the world' by producing needless artifacts that they, and only they (and only in some particular release) support, undoing the effect of using ant and Java, generic SQL and portable user interfaces. For a long time, you could only reasonably do swt with Eclipse - I heard that changed. I sometimes do data modelling in Eclipse - and I always have to fall back to older versions only half a year later or so to read in my product. > > I had NetBeans change the rules in a new version - no more class in source directories, no more integration with make, and lose compatibility with their own user interface definitions. We froze the version and dropped it for the next release, redoing the GUI at a cost of a standstill in app functionality. Also, I don't get the 'refactoring' and 'easy api lookup' arguments - most of the time I am fairly stable in designs (you should model and design first - honestly) and I know the API before I start typing - I have stared with amazement at youngsters who just pressed characters after the dot to see if the type of their variable offered some api hints to continue their effort, which they only vaguely understood anyway. > > With regards to NetRexx support, I have a neutral position; the advantage is that I do not have to choose. If an IDE supports the uptake of NetRexx, I am all for it. I would love to see NetBeans support on the level of your Eclipse plugin. > >> To each his own, but in what way are the debuggers slow? In the JDE, >> if I have a problem with something, I can set breakpoints instantly by >> clicking on the code lines, hit F11 to debug, trace the flow, look at > > I admit my view might have been originated in previous times with slower machines and older releases. Although the server side code, and the ports issues with remote JVM debugging are real. Banking systems log, for this reason, just about everything to text files, even until they are I/O bound - when using the wrong logging API, like System.out.println. > >> well as debugging. If Eclipse and NetBeans are on the wrong track, >> why are they so widely used? > > Hmm - 50 million Elvis fans cannot be wrong? (I like Elvis btw, specially the song 'Polk Salad Annie'.) The problem here is, when GUI and IDE took over, there stopped to be significant statistics of how much productivity was lost. Sure, any kid can configure a Windows box nowadays, as opposed to do a stage-1 OS/VS2 IO gen. But if out of 100 boxes (of which onky 20 are needed), 90 have a different configuration (codepages, service packs, powershell configs, vbs releases, office patches) what have we gained. My take is, this is losing companies money in a terrible way, and would offset offshoring if handled correctly). Our colleagues in India do the same, and sometimes even more so. My take is, hire one crack old guy and leave the 40 you think you need to think of new things to do with the business instead of doing IT admin. > >> What do you suggest I do that I'm not doing? > > I would like you to check your Eclipse things into version management at Kenai - first using the public repository and then, when granted commit rights, the main repository. If you would like. > >>> best regards, >>> >>> René. >>> > > _______________________________________________ > Ibm-netrexx mailing list > [hidden email] > Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ > _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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To be clear: I support everything that we can do to make development
with Eclipse (NetBeans, IDEA, Rational ...) easier, without impacting other folks' ability to use Ant as the baseline building method. In the interest of full disclosure, I even find Ant too much trouble when compared to 'make', but I have found a compromise that works, and I really appreciate the work that people did on it to support the separation of the bootstrap compiler from the compiler to be built. The NetRexx project will depend on a lot of people, however, to provide the support for all these environments. I am happy with the dialog and openness in which everybody contributes. Although I do like your environment setting, and am bound to steal it someday. On 2012-09-05 13:17, Earl Hodil wrote: > # > # So René, I guess we can put you down as a MAYBE on Eclipse? > # > export MAYBE="NOT NO, BUT HELL NO!!!" > > best regards, René. _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by rvjansen
Rene,
My Eclipse NetRexx plugin has always been open source, distributed under the Eclipse Public License (EPL), and is in Sourceforge at https://sourceforge.net/projects/eclipsenetrexx/ As I recall, it was there before Oracle took over Sun and before the current iteration of Kenai existed, but my memory may be faulty. I prefer Sourceforge to Kenai. I think Kenai as the "new kid on the block" is too much of an arm of Oracle. Frankly, I trust Sourceforge more to uphold the spirit of open source. I've been a /. reader since shortly after it started in the 90's and Sourceforge was the natural choice for me. Did you know that my plugin was in Sourceforge and are saying that Kenai is somehow superior? If so, please explain, as I don't see any advantages of Kenai over Sourceforge. Or did you just not know and were simply asking that I release the source? I haven't made any secret of it. The About page in the plugin has a direct link to the plugin source, as well as links to netrexx.org and rexxla.org. Bill On 9/5/2012 6:39 AM, rvjansen wrote: > >> What do you suggest I do that I'm not doing? > > I would like you to check your Eclipse things into version management > at Kenai - first using the public repository and then, when granted > commit rights, the main repository. If you would like. _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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>
> I prefer Sourceforge to Kenai. I think Kenai as the "new kid on the > block" is too much of an arm of Oracle. Frankly, I trust Sourceforge > more to uphold the spirit of open source. I've been a /. reader > since > shortly after it started in the 90's and Sourceforge was the natural > choice for me. > > Did you know that my plugin was in Sourceforge and are saying that > Kenai is somehow superior? If so, please explain, as I don't see any > advantages of Kenai over Sourceforge. > > Or did you just not know and were simply asking that I release the > source? I haven't made any secret of it. The About page in the > plugin has a direct link to the plugin source, as well as links to > netrexx.org and rexxla.org. > I did know, but I find it important that it should be all in one place. I think Kenai is a temporary home, and I share you sentiments about it, in sphere of influence and also in maturity. But ooRexx recently moved to Allure, within SourceForge, and it made quite some waves; I would like to postpone that for NetRexx until we have had a few more releases. I have grown quite fond of Git over the last year, and I see a definite possibility for it in the future NetRexx repository. Qua speed, and the facility to quickly branch and merge I have started to prefer it over svn; but I would like to avoid any major disruptions now - we have 33 project contributors/editors/observers now, and I would like to keep them all. best regards, René. _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
Re: Eclipse compiler and NetRexx build
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In reply to this post by billfen
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 11:08 AM, Bill Fenlason <[hidden email]> wrote:
-1 Pleeeease... don´t bloat NetRexx. That reminds me of people who create a Java app then "package it" with a private JRE. FC _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
Re: Eclipse compiler and NetRexx build
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In reply to this post by rvjansen
On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 7:39 AM, rvjansen <[hidden email]> wrote: I would love to see NetBeans support on the level of your Eclipse plugin. +1.. ;) Being able to load Netbeans, draw a GUI, and then click and type NetRexx code and build GUI apps would bring back the joy of OS/2´s VX-Rexx :) FC _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
Re: Eclipse compiler and NetRexx build
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In reply to this post by billfen
On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 8:33 AM, Bill Fenlason <[hidden email]> wrote:
Oracle made this insanity to move Java.net to the "kenai.com infrastructure" -why? no idea, perhaps "not invented here syndrome", the original Sun Java.net worked quite well. Now they´ve got two sites, Kenai.com and Java.net. I´d say that if you have to choice between the two, I´d say for "marketing" reasons (java.net host name), Java projects should go to Java.net rather than Kenai.com (the underlying infrastructure is the same). Having said that, I prefer Sourceforge.net... if only because it has download mirrors world-wide... Just my $0.02... FC -- During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act - George Orwell _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by rvjansen
Rene,
So you are suggesting that I move my plugin from Sourceforge to Kenai temporarily so that I can move it somewhere else or back to Sourceforge? No thanks. Please explain the advantage of "all in one place"? Any potential Eclipse user will immediately find the plugin via Eclipse Marketplace and its one click install. Bill PS Not to be overly opinionated, but I think that the use of tab characters as delimiters in make is one of the worst design decisions in history. You can keep it! On 9/5/2012 7:40 AM, rvjansen wrote: >> >> I prefer Sourceforge to Kenai. I think Kenai as the "new kid on the >> block" is too much of an arm of Oracle. Frankly, I trust Sourceforge >> more to uphold the spirit of open source. I've been a /. reader since >> shortly after it started in the 90's and Sourceforge was the natural >> choice for me. >> >> Did you know that my plugin was in Sourceforge and are saying that >> Kenai is somehow superior? If so, please explain, as I don't see any >> advantages of Kenai over Sourceforge. >> >> Or did you just not know and were simply asking that I release the >> source? I haven't made any secret of it. The About page in the >> plugin has a direct link to the plugin source, as well as links to >> netrexx.org and rexxla.org. >> > > I did know, but I find it important that it should be all in one > place. I think Kenai is a temporary home, and I share you sentiments > about it, in sphere of influence and also in maturity. But ooRexx > recently moved to Allure, within SourceForge, and it made quite some > waves; I would like to postpone that for NetRexx until we have had a > few more releases. > > I have grown quite fond of Git over the last year, and I see a > definite possibility for it in the future NetRexx repository. Qua > speed, and the facility to quickly branch and merge I have started to > prefer it over svn; but I would like to avoid any major disruptions > now - we have 33 project contributors/editors/observers now, and I > would like to keep them all. > > best regards, > > René. > > _______________________________________________ > Ibm-netrexx mailing list > [hidden email] > Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5249 - Release Date: 09/04/12 _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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The advantage of all in one place is that more people interested in
NetRexx and Eclipse would be inclined to look into it and contribute. Yes, the tabs are terrible; as the story goes, the guy who came up with make at Bell's labs realised this one morning, but could not change it anymore because he already had 9 users. best regards, René. On 2012-09-05 13:58, Bill Fenlason wrote: > Rene, > > So you are suggesting that I move my plugin from Sourceforge to Kenai > temporarily so that I can move it somewhere else or back to > Sourceforge? No thanks. > > Please explain the advantage of "all in one place"? > > Any potential Eclipse user will immediately find the plugin via > Eclipse Marketplace and its one click install. > > Bill > > PS Not to be overly opinionated, but I think that the use of tab > characters as delimiters in make is one of the worst design decisions > in history. You can keep it! > _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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Well, I have subscribed to the SF project at
http://sourceforge.net/projects/eclipsenetrexx/ I suggest that everyone with an interest in IDE support for NetRexx does the same. best regards, René. On 2012-09-05 14:07, rvjansen wrote: > The advantage of all in one place is that more people interested in > NetRexx and Eclipse would be inclined to look into it and contribute. > > Yes, the tabs are terrible; as the story goes, the guy who came up > with make at Bell's labs realised this one morning, but could not > change it anymore because he already had 9 users. > > best regards, > > René. > > > > On 2012-09-05 13:58, Bill Fenlason wrote: >> Rene, >> >> So you are suggesting that I move my plugin from Sourceforge to >> Kenai >> temporarily so that I can move it somewhere else or back to >> Sourceforge? No thanks. >> >> Please explain the advantage of "all in one place"? >> >> Any potential Eclipse user will immediately find the plugin via >> Eclipse Marketplace and its one click install. >> >> Bill >> >> PS Not to be overly opinionated, but I think that the use of tab >> characters as delimiters in make is one of the worst design >> decisions >> in history. You can keep it! >> > > _______________________________________________ > Ibm-netrexx mailing list > [hidden email] > Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by rvjansen
On 9/5/2012 8:07 AM, rvjansen wrote: > The advantage of all in one place is that more people interested in > NetRexx and Eclipse would be inclined to look into it and contribute. Sorry, but that does not compute. Having the source repositories in the same location has no benefit at all. Feel free to add the comment: "An Eclipse Plugin for NetRexx is available via the Eclipse Marketplace." at a prominent location in the netrexx.org site. That will be sufficient for Eclipse users. Trying to get NetRexx users who are not Eclipse users to be interested in and to use Eclipse is not easy - ask some one who just might know! :) After all, the plugin links back to netrexx.org, but you have not provided any information (other than an obscure link in the wiki) about the Eclipse plugin. > > > On 2012-09-05 13:58, Bill Fenlason wrote: >> Rene, >> >> So you are suggesting that I move my plugin from Sourceforge to Kenai >> temporarily so that I can move it somewhere else or back to >> Sourceforge? No thanks. >> >> Please explain the advantage of "all in one place"? >> >> Any potential Eclipse user will immediately find the plugin via >> Eclipse Marketplace and its one click install. >> >> Bill _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
Re: Eclipse compiler and NetRexx build
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In reply to this post by rvjansen
Rene,
Fascinating. But re The NetRexx project will depend on a lot of people, however, to provide the support for all these environments. it sounds like an enormous manpower sink. Will there be any resources left over to update NetRexx's Java compatibility? As you amply describe, keeping up with these environments requires unending vigilance. And once you've announced you are going to support X you risk venomous reaction if you renege or stumble. This could be a real tar baby. Shouldn't there be some hard thinking about just what the scope of the project should be? For example, how about supporting only installations with enough nous to have set up an appropriate Java environment? You have spoken eloquently on how organizations, unbeknownst to them, are dependent on tools like Rexx. Don't these heroic efforts to install NetRexx for naive users create a similar dependency on tools they don't really understand? Also, is NetRexx OS-agnostic? I read frequent references here to ZOS (an IBM OS, I gather); will, say, Oracle systems get similar attention? [I have no connection with either company.]
On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 7:29 AM, rvjansen <[hidden email]> wrote: To be clear: I support everything that we can do to make development with Eclipse (NetBeans, IDEA, Rational ...) easier, without impacting other folks' ability to use Ant as the baseline building method. In the interest of full disclosure, I even find Ant too much trouble when compared to 'make', but I have found a compromise that works, and I really appreciate the work that people did on it to support the separation of the bootstrap compiler from the compiler to be built. -- "One can live magnificently in this world if one knows how to work and how to love." -- Leo Tolstoy _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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Hi George,
I am not suggesting these are the same people, and up until now, everything has been contributed by people who love the language and care for its continuity. Command line compiling to Java classes is our core business. There has not been much voting going on for issues, either. I think the tar baby is a powerful metaphor, although I only vaguely remember what that was about, it must be a cultural meme. I am not fearing any tar babies or other sticky subjects, because everyone is getting great value for the price, and as long as the price is zero, the value is infinite. The community effort is not for free, however, and apart from people's time and talent, which is priceless, we have cost. This is why I have to say that I would appreciate it if people showed their adherence to the effort by becoming members of RexxLA. Twenty dollars a year is really not much to show your appreciation for Rexx and its different dialects - I know you are of a different opinion, but pluriformity is a great thing; it should be enforced everywhere. And it would make for a good discussion on a Rexx Language Symposium, where I would love to meet some of the correspondents over a few beers. Or waters, if you don't drink. The situation would be different if we would gather funds and contract out work. I know the OS/2 (eComstation) people got their Java 1.6 through sponsorship and a contract with a Russian software house. In that circumstance, we would have to feel bad if we do not deliver. Rest assured that keeping up with Java is not impacted by diversifying a bit among IDE tools. Realistically, this is needed and I think we should be grateful to Bill and others that provide it. If organizations are going to depend on layers of software they do not really understand I would have rather that these are Rexx and NetRexx than shell and vbs. I am just stating a fact of which I am not sure we can do something about. If this helps people getting jobs doing Rexx for a long time, I am all for it. I would find it rather elitist to support only people with a certain level of knowledge (or luck in pressing next, next, finish without changing too much on a popular platform) e.g. enough to install a Java SDK; there is an enormous amount of JVM's around and I think it is wise for NetRexx to limit the requirements to what is needed; if that is a JRE JVM that is great. References to IBM are a natural product of Rexx history, I think, because Rexx, ooRexx, NetRexx came out of IBM, were given to us by IBM; we got to know them through being IBM'mers or working at an IBM customer installation, IBM struck a deal with Amiga, MS was unable to stop it from being included in OS/2 etc. NetRexx is just as OS agnostic as the JVM itself. It works great on GlassFish, WebLogic, FlexCube, Oracle JDBC, etc, to name a few Oracle products. All will get attention when they are mentioned as being success stories or having issues that need attention. At the moment, some people might need help to get it running, but in my experience nothing is more educational than getting things from not running to running. My business is getting things between these states, and helping people do it. Knowledge of every platform starts with where it finds things after magically bootstrapping itself, and the rest follows. Layering of concepts is what drives the human intellect and personally I am not worried if not everybody understands virtual storage or other OS concepts or layers. Personally, I stop at microcode, because I never saw a true benefit in understanding that; although I remember a few times being bitten by it and having to update a processor with a large 8 inch floppy disk. But good that you remind me of scope - for today I am going to stop writing these war and peace emails to focus on some NetRexx related issues. Feel free to vote up the priority of some issues on the community site, so we have a clear scope for the project and are able to focus on producing the right stuff in the coming release. best regards, René. On 2012-09-05 15:02, George Hovey wrote: > Rene, > Fascinating. But re > > The NetRexx project will depend on a lot of people, however, to > provide the support for all these environments. > > it sounds like an enormous manpower sink. Will there be any > resources left over to update NetRexx's Java compatibility? > > As you amply describe, keeping up with these environments requires > unending vigilance. And once you've announced you are going to > support X you risk venomous reaction if you renege or stumble. This > could be a real tar baby. > > Shouldn't there be some hard thinking about just what the scope of > the > project should be? For example, how about supporting only > installations with enough nous to have set up an appropriate Java > environment? > > You have spoken eloquently on how organizations, unbeknownst to them, > are dependent on tools like Rexx. Don't these heroic efforts to > install NetRexx for naive users create a similar dependency on tools > they don't really understand? > > Also, is NetRexx OS-agnostic? I read frequent references here to ZOS > (an IBM OS, I gather); will, say, Oracle systems get similar > attention? [I have no connection with either company.] > _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
Re: Eclipse compiler and NetRexx build
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In reply to this post by rvjansen
On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 9:34 AM, rvjansen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Well, I have subscribed to the SF project at http://sourceforge.net/projects/eclipsenetrexx/ Good idea. Just did.. and also tweeted about it. Including the #Java hashtag also helps bring visibility to the tweet (and hence, the netrexx language). FC _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by rvjansen
And that was one of the worst technical management decisions in history
- not correcting a serious design flaw when it was still feasible to do so. On 9/5/2012 8:07 AM, rvjansen wrote: > > Yes, the tabs are terrible; as the story goes, the guy who came up > with make at Bell's labs realised this one morning, but could not > change it anymore because he already had 9 users. > > best regards, > > René. > > > > On 2012-09-05 13:58, Bill Fenlason wrote: >> PS Not to be overly opinionated, but I think that the use of tab >> characters as delimiters in make is one of the worst design decisions >> in history. You can keep it! _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by rvjansen
Well, to add my 2 cents:
Downloaded it, Subscribed it, and Voted 2 times+ for it... Currently still busy with my own releases, however ... But from what I do see, it's great work, Bill! My deepest Compliments :-) Thomas. ======================================================================= Am 05.09.2012 14:34, schrieb rvjansen: > Well, I have subscribed to the SF project at > http://sourceforge.net/projects/eclipsenetrexx/ > > I suggest that everyone with an interest in IDE support for NetRexx > does the same. > > best regards, > > René. > > > On 2012-09-05 14:07, rvjansen wrote: >> The advantage of all in one place is that more people interested in >> NetRexx and Eclipse would be inclined to look into it and contribute. >> >> Yes, the tabs are terrible; as the story goes, the guy who came up >> with make at Bell's labs realised this one morning, but could not >> change it anymore because he already had 9 users. >> >> best regards, >> >> René. >> >> >> >> On 2012-09-05 13:58, Bill Fenlason wrote: >>> Rene, >>> >>> So you are suggesting that I move my plugin from Sourceforge to Kenai >>> temporarily so that I can move it somewhere else or back to >>> Sourceforge? No thanks. >>> >>> Please explain the advantage of "all in one place"? >>> >>> Any potential Eclipse user will immediately find the plugin via >>> Eclipse Marketplace and its one click install. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> PS Not to be overly opinionated, but I think that the use of tab >>> characters as delimiters in make is one of the worst design decisions >>> in history. You can keep it! >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ibm-netrexx mailing list >> [hidden email] >> Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > Ibm-netrexx mailing list > [hidden email] > Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ > -- Thomas Schneider CEO ThSITC IT Consulting KG Erdbergstr. 52-60/1/13 1030 Wien Austria, Europe Skype ID: Thomas.Schneider.Wien Member of the Rexx Languge Asscociation (www.rexxla.org) Member of the NetRexx Developer's Team (www.netrexx.org) _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/
Thomas Schneider, Vienna, Austria (Europe) :-)
www.thsitc.com www.db-123.com |
Re: Eclipse compiler and NetRexx build
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Rene,
Thanks for your detailed and, as always, even-handed and good humored response. Re contributing: I would contribute a good deal more than $20 if I knew it would be applied directly to NetRexx development. I don't regard "the Rexx Family of Languages" as siblings, but as successive generations, each replacing the last. NetRexx is the best 'mousetrap' so far, and that's where I want to see effort concentrated. Elitism wasn't what I had in mind. I don't mean anyone should be abandoned; we should have instructions, or pointers to instructions, for installing the SDK, and offer the usual help with problems. I was thinking about another angle. The people running this effort, starting with you, are extremely adept at configuring complex systems, so it wouldn't surprise me if you tended to see complex systems as the answer to problems. I'm just pointing out that there could be big benefits to simplifying the problem itself. I more than appreciate Bill, I regard his ambitious project as being of great importance to NetRexx's future. I follow some cutting edge Java hardware/software efforts and Eclipse is their IDE of choice -- it would be a big win if they could be drawn into NetRexx's sphere. On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 10:54 AM, Thomas Schneider <[hidden email]> wrote: Well, to add my 2 cents: -- "One can live magnificently in this world if one knows how to work and how to love." -- Leo Tolstoy _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
Re: Make tabs - was Eclipse compiler and NetRexx build
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In reply to this post by billfen
Was there a tab character in Punched Cards? Bob Hamilton Richardson Texas USA On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 9:13 AM, Bill Fenlason <[hidden email]> wrote: And that was one of the worst technical management decisions in history - not correcting a serious design flaw when it was still feasible to do so. _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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Don't think so - the 026 and 029 keypunches used a drum card for
tabbing.
The make guy was AT&T (Bell Labs) I think, and they probably didn't use cards at all - that was IBM. They probably used VT100 terminals (or paper tape :) On 9/5/2012 1:45 PM, Robert Hamilton
wrote:
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