NetRexx, Potatoes and the Mayan Calendar
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Re: NetRexx, Potatoes and the Mayan Calendar
 
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I know, I just do not want to do more work than necessary or fork anything.
On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 8:26 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote: Jason, _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
Re: NetRexx, Potatoes and the Mayan Calendar
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In reply to this post by billfen
A while back, Mike Cowlishaw said that it might now be possible to
obtain the needed translation data from Java reflection without having to read all of the Jar files. Unfortunately, I have no idea what information was missing before so I don't know where to start to research that idea. If it can be done, it would make it possible to run the full NetRexx compiler/interpreter on Android and similar environments. BTW: The RuntimeConstants file contains the mnemonics and op-codes used by NetRexx to analyze the binary byte-code in the jar files. -- Kermit On 10/28/2012 2:26 PM, [hidden email] wrote: > Jason, > > I'm talking about a version of NetRexx which is implemented in the Android > environment, like running Android on an Android device, or running Android > on a PC using VirtualBox running Android-X86 or something like that. > > The tricky part will be the initial bootstrap process. > > Certainly the Android version can share many source files with the pc > version, but it doesn't make sense to me to have any of the operating > system (i.e. Java VM versus Dalvic VM) related nrx/Java class files to be > shared. As I said, other views may be valid. > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: Jason Martin [hidden email] > Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 19:55:20 -0400 > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] NetRexx, Potatoes and the Mayan Calendar > > > NetRexx itself is flexible enough that it does not have to be separate. > > It might involve doing some of the work inside the main app and passing it > back through > with few changes to NetRexx itself. > > My motive is that when all these devices are being discarded some years > from now > they can put to use by the average person to keep doing something useful. > > Pump water, teach the kid and whatever. > > I do not even own a cell phone or DTV. (I watch free over the air TV with a > tuner card and rabbit ears on a junk PC, sometimes without a hard drive) > > I am really not concerned with "Can you hear me now" or "Plus one" or "LIke > this" or whatever the trend is. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web > > > _______________________________________________ > Ibm-netrexx mailing list > [hidden email] > Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
Re: NetRexx, Potatoes and the Mayan Calendar
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That's why I said NetRexx does not need a copy. The file warns of that. You would have to keep up with all that each time they changed.
On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 8:56 PM, Kermit Kiser <[hidden email]> wrote: A while back, Mike Cowlishaw said that it might now be possible to obtain the needed translation data from Java reflection without having to read all of the Jar files. Unfortunately, I have no idea what information was missing before so I don't know where to start to research that idea. If it can be done, it would make it possible to run the full NetRexx compiler/interpreter on Android and similar environments. _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by Jason Martin
Since the Java VM and the Dalvic VM are totally different and in the
Android environment there are no jar/class files (AFAIK), I'm not convinced that using reflection in a universal NetRexx version is the best approach. As I said, I think it would be better to have separate versions for each truly different environment (i.e. Java VM). Original Message: ----------------- From: Kermit Kiser [hidden email] Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 14:56:51 -1000 To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] NetRexx, Potatoes and the Mayan Calendar A while back, Mike Cowlishaw said that it might now be possible to obtain the needed translation data from Java reflection without having to read all of the Jar files. Unfortunately, I have no idea what information was missing before so I don't know where to start to research that idea. If it can be done, it would make it possible to run the full NetRexx compiler/interpreter on Android and similar environments. BTW: The RuntimeConstants file contains the mnemonics and op-codes used by NetRexx to analyze the binary byte-code in the jar files. -- Kermit On 10/28/2012 2:26 PM, [hidden email] wrote: > Jason, > > I'm talking about a version of NetRexx which is implemented in the Android > environment, like running Android on an Android device, or running Android > on a PC using VirtualBox running Android-X86 or something like that. > > The tricky part will be the initial bootstrap process. > > Certainly the Android version can share many source files with the pc > version, but it doesn't make sense to me to have any of the operating > system (i.e. Java VM versus Dalvic VM) related nrx/Java class files to be > shared. As I said, other views may be valid. > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: Jason Martin [hidden email] > Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 19:55:20 -0400 > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] NetRexx, Potatoes and the Mayan Calendar > > > NetRexx itself is flexible enough that it does not have to be separate. > > It might involve doing some of the work inside the main app and passing it > back through > with few changes to NetRexx itself. > > My motive is that when all these devices are being discarded some years > from now > they can put to use by the average person to keep doing something useful. > > Pump water, teach the kid and whatever. > > I do not even own a cell phone or DTV. (I watch free over the air TV with > tuner card and rabbit ears on a junk PC, sometimes without a hard drive) > > I am really not concerned with "Can you hear me now" or "Plus one" or "LIke > this" or whatever the trend is. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web > > > _______________________________________________ > Ibm-netrexx mailing list > [hidden email] > Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ -------------------------------------------------------------------- myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft® Windows® and Linux web and application hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by Kermit Kiser
> A while back, Mike Cowlishaw said that it might now be
> possible to obtain the needed translation data from Java > reflection without having to read all of the Jar files. > Unfortunately, I have no idea what information was missing > before so I don't know where to start to research that idea. > If it can be done, it would make it possible to run the full > NetRexx compiler/interpreter on Android and similar environments. Might be worth doing even if not helpful for Android. A quick search for comments including 'reflection' found [in loadclass method in RxClasser]: The RxClassInfo information could be set directly by RxClassImage, but the current approach will make it easier to move to use the reflection methods in Java 1.1, later (if and when they provide access to Attributes). I don't recall why Attributes were needed, and haven't looked, but hopefully the code/commentary explains. Mike _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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Thanks for the pointer, Mike.
RxClassImage looks at two attributes from the byte-code: Deprecated and InnerClasses The "Deprecated" attribute was replaced in Java 1.5 with the @Deprecated annotation which is accessible via reflection. The InnerClasses data appears to be used to make invisible the passing of the instance value to dependent classes. That data seems to be available through reflection also. Question: Is the reading and analysis of all imported classes prior to starting the translation done for efficiency? (I am assuming that fully qualified references that are not imported are handled more adhoc.) -- Kermit On 10/28/2012 10:54 PM, Mike Cowlishaw wrote: >> A while back, Mike Cowlishaw said that it might now be >> possible to obtain the needed translation data from Java >> reflection without having to read all of the Jar files. >> Unfortunately, I have no idea what information was missing >> before so I don't know where to start to research that idea. >> If it can be done, it would make it possible to run the full >> NetRexx compiler/interpreter on Android and similar environments. > Might be worth doing even if not helpful for Android. A quick search for > comments including 'reflection' found [in loadclass method in RxClasser]: > > The RxClassInfo information could be set directly by RxClassImage, > but the current approach will make it easier to move to use the > reflection methods in Java 1.1, later (if and when they provide > access to Attributes). > > I don't recall why Attributes were needed, and haven't looked, but hopefully the > code/commentary explains. > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > Ibm-netrexx mailing list > [hidden email] > Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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It is more subtle than I first thought:-
I am using jEdit 5.0 pre 1 - JDK 1.7.0 u9 x64. Creating a program of a "trace all" and a single "say" statement I can - very rarely - not get any interpreted output with a freshly booted machine and jEdit being the first Java application run. I cannot reliably reproduce the issue, and think that this is probably related more to Java than your plugin. As a minor observation, however, I note that, once selected it is not possible to unselect the "Show interpreter parse output" button. There is also a minor problem with the trace button:- try this Select the "Show interpreter parse output button," "Show program output" and "Show TRACE output" in that order. Hit the "Run current buffer button" - the image in the trace button disappears. Dave. -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Kermit Kiser Sent: 29 October 2012 20:05 To: IBM Netrexx Subject: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] Reflection Thanks for the pointer, Mike. RxClassImage looks at two attributes from the byte-code: Deprecated and InnerClasses The "Deprecated" attribute was replaced in Java 1.5 with the @Deprecated annotation which is accessible via reflection. The InnerClasses data appears to be used to make invisible the passing of the instance value to dependent classes. That data seems to be available through reflection also. Question: Is the reading and analysis of all imported classes prior to starting the translation done for efficiency? (I am assuming that fully qualified references that are not imported are handled more adhoc.) -- Kermit On 10/28/2012 10:54 PM, Mike Cowlishaw wrote: >> A while back, Mike Cowlishaw said that it might now be possible to >> obtain the needed translation data from Java reflection without >> having to read all of the Jar files. >> Unfortunately, I have no idea what information was missing before so >> I don't know where to start to research that idea. >> If it can be done, it would make it possible to run the full NetRexx >> compiler/interpreter on Android and similar environments. > Might be worth doing even if not helpful for Android. A quick search > for comments including 'reflection' found [in loadclass method in RxClasser]: > > The RxClassInfo information could be set directly by RxClassImage, > but the current approach will make it easier to move to use the > reflection methods in Java 1.1, later (if and when they provide > access to Attributes). > > I don't recall why Attributes were needed, and haven't looked, but > hopefully the code/commentary explains. > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > Ibm-netrexx mailing list > [hidden email] > Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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Sorry for this!
I managed to reply to the wrong message from Kermit - please disregard this message. Dave. -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dave Woodman Sent: 29 October 2012 22:32 To: 'IBM Netrexx' Subject: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] Reflection It is more subtle than I first thought:- I am using jEdit 5.0 pre 1 - JDK 1.7.0 u9 x64. Creating a program of a "trace all" and a single "say" statement I can - very rarely - not get any interpreted output with a freshly booted machine and jEdit being the first Java application run. I cannot reliably reproduce the issue, and think that this is probably related more to Java than your plugin. As a minor observation, however, I note that, once selected it is not possible to unselect the "Show interpreter parse output" button. There is also a minor problem with the trace button:- try this Select the "Show interpreter parse output button," "Show program output" and "Show TRACE output" in that order. Hit the "Run current buffer button" - the image in the trace button disappears. Dave. -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Kermit Kiser Sent: 29 October 2012 20:05 To: IBM Netrexx Subject: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] Reflection Thanks for the pointer, Mike. RxClassImage looks at two attributes from the byte-code: Deprecated and InnerClasses The "Deprecated" attribute was replaced in Java 1.5 with the @Deprecated annotation which is accessible via reflection. The InnerClasses data appears to be used to make invisible the passing of the instance value to dependent classes. That data seems to be available through reflection also. Question: Is the reading and analysis of all imported classes prior to starting the translation done for efficiency? (I am assuming that fully qualified references that are not imported are handled more adhoc.) -- Kermit On 10/28/2012 10:54 PM, Mike Cowlishaw wrote: >> A while back, Mike Cowlishaw said that it might now be possible to >> obtain the needed translation data from Java reflection without >> having to read all of the Jar files. >> Unfortunately, I have no idea what information was missing before so >> I don't know where to start to research that idea. >> If it can be done, it would make it possible to run the full NetRexx >> compiler/interpreter on Android and similar environments. > Might be worth doing even if not helpful for Android. A quick search > for comments including 'reflection' found [in loadclass method in RxClasser]: > > The RxClassInfo information could be set directly by RxClassImage, > but the current approach will make it easier to move to use the > reflection methods in Java 1.1, later (if and when they provide > access to Attributes). > > I don't recall why Attributes were needed, and haven't looked, but > hopefully the code/commentary explains. > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > Ibm-netrexx mailing list > [hidden email] > Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by Kermit Kiser
> Thanks for the pointer, Mike. > > RxClassImage looks at two attributes from the byte-code: > Deprecated and InnerClasses > > The "Deprecated" attribute was replaced in Java 1.5 with the > @Deprecated annotation which is accessible via reflection. > The InnerClasses data appears to be used to make invisible > the passing of the instance value to dependent classes. That > data seems to be available through reflection also. In that case, I suspect it may be possible to skip the 'physical' class reading and use reflection calls instead. Might be worth doing a performance comparison first, however. > Question: Is the reading and analysis of all imported classes > prior to starting the translation done for efficiency? (I am > assuming that fully qualified references that are not > imported are handled more adhoc.) I don't really remember .. suspect it may have been more for simplicity. Might be something in the commentary about it; I generally document reasons for decisions like that (if I made a conscious decision -- there may have been something else that forced that approach). Mike _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by billfen
May I, please, personally, *underline* the *growing importance* of
having a separate *category* on www.netrexx.org, possibly named: Developing ANDROID applications using NetRexx (or any similar topic you do decide to name it). Rene, and all others involved, *please go ahead*, as soon as you find the time, to establish *this thread* on www.Netrexx.org ! Thanks in advance, as always, Thomas Schneider. ==================================================================== Am 29.10.2012 00:31, schrieb [hidden email]: > Certainly a version of NetRexx that runs on Android would be worthwhile. > > I know very little about Android internals, but based on this Wikipedia > entry > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Java_and_Android_API > and apparently part of the google/oracle war: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_v._Google > the Dalvic VM was developed, and it is incompatible with the standard Java > VM. > > It seems to me that a separate project for NetRexx Android should be > established at the NetRexx archive. There will, of course, be significant > similarity for the two projects, but since the executables are .dex files > rather than class files I think trying to have a single version may not be > the best way to go. The alternative would be to try to have an option > which specifies that the dx compiler be used, but I don't think that would > be workable. (Of course, I may be wrong - I may be victim of "a little > knowledge is a dangerous thing" :) > > This applies to a version of the NetRexx translator / compiler that runs on > Android. Android applications written in NetRexx are no problem since part > of the existing Android application development process is the conversion > of class files to .dex files. > > Bill > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: Jason Martin [hidden email] > Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 15:51:23 -0400 > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] NetRexx, Potatoes and the Mayan Calendar > > > Most of those classes are there in framework.jar and core.jar and what I > found in testing was they are in classes.dex. > > Hacking a little and Android refuses to load them again the way NetRexx > would want to. > > You then say hey, life is to short. > > Go list the files in some platform version of android jar; > > grep the 3217 class names; > > replace the $ with . ; > > write a Netrexx class; > > bypass most of RxClasser and Android dex stuff; > > Go feed the one chicken you have left; > > come back watch the News; > > and say hey, all that work and they never got pass the 1's and 0's stuff. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - > http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange > > > _______________________________________________ > Ibm-netrexx mailing list > [hidden email] > Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ > > -- Thomas Schneider CEO ThSITC IT Consulting KG Erdbergstr. 52-60/1/13 1030 Wien http://www.thsitc.com Austria, Europe Skype ID: Thomas.Schneider.Wien Member of the Rexx Languge Asscociation (www.rexxla.org) Member of the NetRexx Developer's Team (www.netrexx.org) _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/
Thomas Schneider, Vienna, Austria (Europe) :-)
www.thsitc.com www.db-123.com |
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Thomas,
there is already a link to the Android material that Kermit provides on the website. Still, I see the point of emphasizing the Android capabilities of NetRexx a bit more, and I do agree that it is of great importance, but there are several reasons I want to wait a while before doing that: 1) the whole website needs review and redesign 2) for anyone to develop for Android there are some hurdles 3) developing on Android is not possible yet, but will (in all probability, reading Jason's posts) be when 3.02 comes out (in or after December) Any moment now the Android support for the 512Mb Raspberry Pi will come out, which will, in all probability, give us a low cost (<50$) reference development and testing platform for NetRexx on Android that does not need to be rooted. This will make a world of difference, as the current devices are costly (or underpowered) and mostly locked down by phone providers, that have effectively cut off the upgrade path and development capacity of these great devices - and they still keep your money if you complain about this. I want to make sure that there are clear directions on how to use that open environment, and that we solve some of the more annoying install problems for novices. So expect these things to start moving after 3.02 is released. best regards, René. On 2012-10-30 13:23, Thomas Schneider wrote: > May I, please, personally, *underline* the *growing importance* of > having a separate > *category* on www.netrexx.org, possibly named: > > Developing ANDROID applications using NetRexx > > (or any similar topic you do decide to name it). > > Rene, and all others involved, *please go ahead*, as soon as you find > the time, > to establish *this thread* on www.Netrexx.org ! > > Thanks in advance, as always, > Thomas Schneider. > ==================================================================== _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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Rene, and all,
*you* are obviously *much deeper* in all those details! I am, maybe too much, still buried with *ancient languages*, as COBOL, PLI, Basic, or whatsoever, and also very busy to release a couple of developments now to the public. As I do *trust you*, Mr. RexxLA President, and all those Netrexx Developers very much, I think you will do the right decisions, at the proper time. My feeling simply is, as I did express in my inquiry, that we could *really boost* NetRexx usage for developping ANDROID, and later iPhone, Apps! Thus, we shall be prepared to actually *do so*, as quick as possible. As already said: Google is selling currently 250.000 (twohundredfivtythousand) Android licences *by day*, dear friends! Thus, that shall be our market, for marketing NetRexx, I think and believe! Full Stop, Thomas Schneider. PS: Rene, thanks for clarifying this issue for me, and all the members of this group :-) ====================================================================== Am 30.10.2012 14:18, schrieb rvjansen: > Thomas, > > there is already a link to the Android material that Kermit provides > on the website. Still, I see the point of emphasizing the Android > capabilities of NetRexx a bit more, and I do agree that it is of great > importance, but there are several reasons I want to wait a while > before doing that: > > 1) the whole website needs review and redesign > 2) for anyone to develop for Android there are some hurdles > 3) developing on Android is not possible yet, but will (in all > probability, reading Jason's posts) be when 3.02 comes out (in or > after December) > > Any moment now the Android support for the 512Mb Raspberry Pi will > come out, which will, in all probability, give us a low cost (<50$) > reference development and testing platform for NetRexx on Android that > does not need to be rooted. This will make a world of difference, as > the current devices are costly (or underpowered) and mostly locked > down by phone providers, that have effectively cut off the upgrade > path and development capacity of these great devices - and they still > keep your money if you complain about this. I want to make sure that > there are clear directions on how to use that open environment, and > that we solve some of the more annoying install problems for novices. > > So expect these things to start moving after 3.02 is released. > > best regards, > > René. > > > > > > > On 2012-10-30 13:23, Thomas Schneider wrote: >> May I, please, personally, *underline* the *growing importance* of >> having a separate >> *category* on www.netrexx.org, possibly named: >> >> Developing ANDROID applications using NetRexx >> >> (or any similar topic you do decide to name it). >> >> Rene, and all others involved, *please go ahead*, as soon as you find >> the time, >> to establish *this thread* on www.Netrexx.org ! >> >> Thanks in advance, as always, >> Thomas Schneider. >> ==================================================================== > > _______________________________________________ > Ibm-netrexx mailing list > [hidden email] > Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ > -- Thomas Schneider CEO ThSITC IT Consulting KG Erdbergstr. 52-60/1/13 1030 Wien http://www.thsitc.com Austria, Europe Skype ID: Thomas.Schneider.Wien Member of the Rexx Languge Asscociation (www.rexxla.org) Member of the NetRexx Developer's Team (www.netrexx.org) _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/
Thomas Schneider, Vienna, Austria (Europe) :-)
www.thsitc.com www.db-123.com |
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In reply to this post by Jason Martin
*Fully agreed*, Mr Jason Martin, *but*
I'm stillk thinking (and implementing, in my Rey, Language, by the way...) That: x = 300000 y = x - 10 % *might be* much a more *natural approach* than using the Percent Sign fgor *Integer Division*! But that, of course, are *only thinkigns* and *personal preferences* of the so called ... CRACY Uncle Tom, +from+ Vienna, Austria, Europe (*no Kangoroohs, here, I'm sooo sorry*) By the way<, whilst writing this ashort message, I do with (personally, again, of course) Living there in New York, or near of it,* :-) ********************************************* * A VERY FAST REVIVAL ********************************************* from your SANDY Storm, destroying soooo much goodies there! All good luck, to those, who have been, or are, still *influenced+ Pls. do KEEP CARE, of your self, and you families ! =========================================================== Thomas. ================================================================= Am 29.10.2012 00:26, schrieb Jason Martin: Just kidding! --
Thomas Schneider CEO ThSITC IT Consulting KG Erdbergstr. 52-60/1/13 1030 Wien http://www.thsitc.com Austria, Europe Skype ID: Thomas.Schneider.Wien Member of the Rexx Languge Asscociation (www.rexxla.org) Member of the NetRexx Developer's Team (www.netrexx.org) _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/
Thomas Schneider, Vienna, Austria (Europe) :-)
www.thsitc.com www.db-123.com |
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