ibm-netrexx

Open source license

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Bruce Skelly

Re: Open source license

Oh, I hadn't caught that IBM announced that they decided not to open source NetRexx. I guess all of this chit chat about the status can end now.

Bruce
On Oct 16, 2010, at 10:39 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> IBM promised to open source NetRexx two and a half years ago, and they have
> broken that promise.

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Thomas.Schneider.Wien

Re: Open source license

In reply to this post by David Requena

Hello David, *and all*....

Let us stop *at the moment* all of those Assumptions, please ...

Let us see

1) What is part of the open source licence
2) When we get it

This whole discussion is *useless* until we do have *the source*

Tom, from dark Vienna.

PS: David, I'm working hard to get my part open source ASAP! :-)

PPS: All others: it *is* already *open source, there in my project ReyC
on www.KENAI.com, but still only modifiable by me (with David's help),
as I am still in the *development* (pre-alpha) stage ... Sorry.
===========================================================
Am 15.10.2010 03:29, schrieb David Requena:

I always thought of that negotiation as one between IBM and RexxLA (as opposed to IBM and René). Anyway intended license is clearly non-disclosable information as this has been asked one thousand times here. never a hint back :-)
---
Saludos / Kind regards.
David Requena
El 14/10/2010 18:03, [hidden email] escribió:
On 10/14/2010 11:32 AM, David Requena wrote:
That seems to be part of the non-discloseable information subject to 
negotiation. 
 
-
Saludos / Kind regards,
David Requena
What negotiation?  As was disclosed earlier, Rene is paid by IBM.


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Tom. (ths@db-123.com)

Thomas.Schneider.Wien

Active vs. in Pension

In reply to this post by Jeff Hennick

Hello Jeff,
I'm also already in Pension ...
*nice to meet you*

By the way,

who in ibm-netRexx is still not in Pension?
and where are you working?

Wouldn't it be nice to get this info thru REXXLA?

Thomas.
========================================================
Am 16.10.2010 22:16, schrieb Jeff Hennick:

> René,
>
> If you could send me a copy of the RexxLA bylaws, I volunteer to put
> them into HTML format for the Association.
>
> Before it gets asked, my agenda is as a (Net)Rexx-lover,
> Java-indifferent-to-avoider, retiree (Eastman Kodak, not IBM) who
> volunteer programs for several non-profit organizations of varying
> degrees of charity status. Essentially all my work is licensed open
> source. As such I have no profit motive, axe to grind, dog in the
> fight, nor any programming income to spend "sight-unseen," and would
> very much like to have more information about RexxLA before paying
> from my pension.
>
> Jeff Hennick
>
> On 10/15/2010 4:13 PM, René Jansen wrote:
>> I still think the original question is off-topic.
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Tom. (ths@db-123.com)

Thomas.Schneider.Wien

Re: Open source license

In reply to this post by Bruce Skelly

That now really is a *quid pro quo* Assumption (*BAD*
**Unterstellung** (german) ...

Whilst I do *not know* why it takes sooooo long (except for *removing code*
Mike wrote to interface it (with the help of other IBM departments) with
PL/II and COBOL) ....
... I do have no idea....

Thomas.

PS:

Rene, it might be the time, that IBM and you might want to make and publish
a release schedule ???

Greetings to Venetia,
Tom.
===============================================================
Am 16.10.2010 22:27, schrieb Bruce Skelly:

> Oh, I hadn't caught that IBM announced that they decided not to open source NetRexx. I guess all of this chit chat about the status can end now.
>
> Bruce
> On Oct 16, 2010, at 10:39 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>> IBM promised to open source NetRexx two and a half years ago, and they have
>> broken that promise.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
>
>

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George Hovey-2

Re: RexxLA and NetRexx, was: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] Open source license

In reply to this post by rvjansen

Rene,
I take what you say at face value (I have no conspiracy theories). Your reply is impassioned and convincing; why not put some form of it up as a "mission statement" at RexxLA? It gives me a much better idea of what $24 will buy than the current sentence about Rexx. I have a bit more to say, but I'll respect your plea (and Mike's) to keep this forum for purely technical (or at least noncontroversial) issues, and respond offline.

On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:13 PM, René Jansen <[hidden email]> wrote:

I still think the original question is off-topic.

Now that you add NetRexx to the equation it could be slightly on-topic, and I will offer you my personal views. The people from RexxLA, with the obvious exception of myself, are the nicest bunch of professional people I have ever met, and I have no problem in calling most of them my personal friends. This might be of no importance to you, but what is important, is that expert knowledge about the whole Rexx universe is concentrated in just this group of people. RexxLA has a long history and has earned the trust of IBM, enough to consider open sourcing these products through it.

There is no 'stance on the bylaws'. It is just accidental that after the initial impulse - I might have asked for them myself - no-one could find the time. RexxLA organizes yearly symposia - these cost money, as do servers and bandwidth. If $2 a month is too much for an opportunity to share in this and to meet everyone who has meant something in the long history of the language, I can only say that nobody is forcing you.

And I don't see what relevance Rexx has to NetRexx, which is a very different animal.
About 'promoting the use and understanding' : I am not going to rattle off the whole list of similarities again because I believe I recently did this, but NetRexx has parse, trace, string abuttal and all Rexx string functions. It is invented and implemented by the father of Rexx. NetRexx is Rexx. If you think it is not Rexx I am willing to discuss this over a few beers, but I do not think it is worth the bandwidth of the mailing list. There is a large subset of people on the ooRexx lists (and the RexxLa list) shared with this list, and every symposium since the mid-nineties has had presentations on Classic Rexx, ooRexx and NetRexx.

You (RexxLA, not you personally) have no obvious experience with NetRexx.
RexxLA counts Mike Cowlishaw among its members. He has, obviously, quite some experience with the language. Although I am the last person who has built NetRexx recently, he will be involved in the future of the language, as will others, some of them also on this list. As you have seen, continued discussion of this type might drive him away from this list. I am certain that this is not what you want.

Rexx and NetRexx, as the granddaddy of scripting languages, respectively the granddaddy of alternative languages for the JVM, are well thought out and are here to stay, as opposed to some other languages that came and went, or have different syntax and break their installed base in every major revision. I would like to compare this to z/OS, where I can still run load modules from the seventies on a current system. These are values that are intrinsic to the culture around it. What you call ossified I might call dependable.

So, with this, I would like to ask you all to limit discussion to technical NetRexx issues. We are losing list members through this. The list is provided as a courtesy to the community by IBM and it might be heavily moderated or switched off. The time that I spend in trying to politely answer your queries and worries, I can not spend on open sourcing NetRexx or, for example, researching Maven to add function to it to build NetRexx or its applications. So, please, do not be offended that with this, I will stop answering questions that I deem off-topic.

best regards,

René Vincent Jansen.

On 15 okt 2010, at 20:38, George Hovey wrote:

I suspect Bill asks his question here so that a broader audience can ponder it.

I have to agree with Bill that RexxLA's stance on the bylaws is strange. The fact that you have the bylaws page suggests that you have some notion of revealing them to a broader public. You seem to say, on this issue and others, "We have great things to offer; $24 in advance, non refundable, will let you find out what they are". I've never seen a justification put forth for this attitude. Lacking that, I am inclined to suspect the organization has ossified to the point that you cannot view yourselves objectively or image how others view you. Can't you see that it would be better to keep the bylaws page invisible until you are ready reveal it; as is, it causes you a loss of credibility.

Is it unreasonable for people in this forum, even RexxLA members, to ask questions about RexxLA? For example, your "mission statement" says the organization is "dedicated to promoting the use and understanding of the Rexx programming language". This seems unlikely to attract potential NetRexx users, especially those from a non-Rexx background. And I don't see what relevance Rexx has to NetRexx, which is a very different animal. You (RexxLA, not you personally) have no obvious experience with NetRexx. I doubt that ooRexx people have any interest in NetRexx. We are given bland assurances that at the proper time a swarm of experts will descend on NetRexx and give it the treatment it needs. Some of these assurances (Chip's) are accompanied by sotto voce asides about the need to root out unspecified Java influences in NetRexx, though why or how this is to be accomplished is not spelled out. Is this the voice of RexxLA speaking? We have no way of knowing.

On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 10:31 AM, René Jansen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Bill,

I do not know on what mission you are, but this is clearly off-topic for the NetRexx list. Why don't you ask on the RexxLA list?

best regards,

René Jansen.

On 15 okt 2010, at 16:09, [hidden email] wrote:

> Do RexxLA members have access to the RexxLA bylaws? It is interesting that
> the RexxLA web site page titled "Bylaws" is "Under Construction". One
> might think that after 20 years either the bylaws would be made public or
> would be identified as private. Strange for a non-profit, volunteer
> organization.
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: David Requena [hidden email]
> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 03:29:33 +0200
> To: [hidden email], [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] Open source license
>
>
>
> I always thought of that negotiation as one between IBM and RexxLA (as

> opposed to IBM and RenÃ©).

>
> Anyway intended license is clearly non-disclosable information as this
> has been asked one thousand times here. never a hint back :-)
>
> ---
> Saludos / Kind regards.
> David Requena
>
>

> El 14/10/2010 18:03, [hidden email] escribiÃ³:

>> On 10/14/2010 11:32 AM, David Requena wrote:
>>> That seems to be part of the non-discloseable information subject to
>> negotiation.
>>>
>>> -
>>> Saludos / Kind regards,
>>> David Requena
>> What negotiation? As was disclosed earlier, Rene is paid by IBM.
>>
>>
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Robert L Hamilton

Re: Open source license

In reply to this post by billfen

I have a potential job depending on out sourced netrexx. Hope that doesn't bother n e 1

Bobh

Sent from my iPhone
Enjoy your day
Bob Hamilton

On Oct 16, 2010, at 12:39 PM, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Since I'm apparently the instigator and bad guy in all of this, I'll say a
> few words of explanation and hopefully that will be the last of it.
>
> While I understand Mike's desire to keep this a technical list, I must
> point out that the release of the NetRexx source is certainly a germane
> topic. The resolution of numerous technical issues depend on it.
>
> IBM promised to open source NetRexx two and a half years ago, and they have
> broken that promise.
>
> Indeed, as far as I can tell, there has been no statement of actual status
> and progress in the last year and a half, other than vague "All is well"
> comments from Rene.
>
> I'm trying to make progress in finding out why the source release is so
> long overdue and to find out what can be done to hasten it. IBM management
> and the RexxLA president have provided no detailed information.
>
> I asked about the RexxLA bylaws because we need to know exactly what kind
> of an organization RexxLA is. What is the truth about its relationship
> with IBM? Why the secrecy?
>
> At first I thought it was an independent trade group, run by non-IBM
> consultants, authors and others with a vested (financial) interest in Rexx.
> Its business model is apparently "pay dues for access to a closed
> discussion list administered by experts", which seems counter to its
> description as a not-for-profit, volunteer organization to promote Rexx.
>
> Now we discover that the RexxLA president (and "chief negotiator") is paid
> by IBM. The bylaws, if they exist, are nowhere to be seen.
>
> The web site identifies various RexxLA board members. It would be
> interesting to know which of them are also paid by IBM, and if the
> President of RexxLA is accountable to a board not controlled by IBM. If
> so, has the board been briefed in detail? Or is RexxLA simply a front
> organization, bought and paid for by IBM? Is all the "negotiation"
> discussion about NetRexx pure BS? In other words, is it all just fog
> between the left hand of IBM and the right? Who is really responsible?
>
> It is totally clear to me that IBM (and that part of RexxLA not controlled
> by IBM, if any) have not applied the appropriate resources and management
> to achieve the source release in a timely fashion. Why not? When will
> they? Whose performance plan has this item? Who is damaging IBMs
> reputation?
>
> Rene, you asked about my mission. Is it so hard to see and understand?
> IBM, keep your promise! Now!
>
> Bill
>
> PS. I know that many readers of this list think I'm a pain in the rear, but
> I accept that because I believe I have the moral high ground. If people
> don't like my squeaky wheel activism, I'm sorry, but so be it. I care more
> about getting the NetRexx source released than I do about popularity. I'll
> say no more here, but concentrate instead on other ways to apply gentle
> public pressure on IBM.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft® Windows® and Linux web and application
> hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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David Requena

Re: Open source license

n e 1?

Anyone?

-
Saludos / Kind regards,
David Requena

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
Sender: [hidden email]
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 14:26:21
To: [hidden email]<[hidden email]>; IBM Netrexx<[hidden email]>
Reply-To: IBM Netrexx <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] Open source license

I have a potential job depending on out sourced netrexx. Hope that doesn't bother n e 1

Bobh

Sent from my iPhone
Enjoy your day
Bob Hamilton

On Oct 16, 2010, at 12:39 PM, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:

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Bruce Skelly

Re: Open source license

Any 1
On Oct 17, 2010, at 1:35 PM, David Requena wrote:

> n e 1?
>
> Anyone?
>
> -
> Saludos / Kind regards,
> David Requena
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> Sender: [hidden email]
> Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 14:26:21
> To: [hidden email]<[hidden email]>; IBM Netrexx<[hidden email]>
> Reply-To: IBM Netrexx <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] Open source license
>
> I have a potential job depending on out sourced netrexx. Hope that doesn't bother n e 1
>
> Bobh
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> Enjoy your day
> Bob Hamilton
>
> On Oct 16, 2010, at 12:39 PM, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Since I'm apparently the instigator and bad guy in all of this, I'll say a
>> few words of explanation and hopefully that will be the last of it.
>>
>> While I understand Mike's desire to keep this a technical list, I must
>> point out that the release of the NetRexx source is certainly a germane
>> topic. The resolution of numerous technical issues depend on it.
>>
>> IBM promised to open source NetRexx two and a half years ago, and they have
>> broken that promise.
>>
>> Indeed, as far as I can tell, there has been no statement of actual status
>> and progress in the last year and a half, other than vague "All is well"
>> comments from Rene.
>>
>> I'm trying to make progress in finding out why the source release is so
>> long overdue and to find out what can be done to hasten it. IBM management
>> and the RexxLA president have provided no detailed information.
>>
>> I asked about the RexxLA bylaws because we need to know exactly what kind
>> of an organization RexxLA is. What is the truth about its relationship
>> with IBM? Why the secrecy?
>>
>> At first I thought it was an independent trade group, run by non-IBM
>> consultants, authors and others with a vested (financial) interest in Rexx.
>> Its business model is apparently "pay dues for access to a closed
>> discussion list administered by experts", which seems counter to its
>> description as a not-for-profit, volunteer organization to promote Rexx.
>>
>> Now we discover that the RexxLA president (and "chief negotiator") is paid
>> by IBM. The bylaws, if they exist, are nowhere to be seen.
>>
>> The web site identifies various RexxLA board members. It would be
>> interesting to know which of them are also paid by IBM, and if the
>> President of RexxLA is accountable to a board not controlled by IBM. If
>> so, has the board been briefed in detail? Or is RexxLA simply a front
>> organization, bought and paid for by IBM? Is all the "negotiation"
>> discussion about NetRexx pure BS? In other words, is it all just fog
>> between the left hand of IBM and the right? Who is really responsible?
>>
>> It is totally clear to me that IBM (and that part of RexxLA not controlled
>> by IBM, if any) have not applied the appropriate resources and management
>> to achieve the source release in a timely fashion. Why not? When will
>> they? Whose performance plan has this item? Who is damaging IBMs
>> reputation?
>>
>> Rene, you asked about my mission. Is it so hard to see and understand?
>> IBM, keep your promise! Now!
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> PS. I know that many readers of this list think I'm a pain in the rear, but
>> I accept that because I believe I have the moral high ground. If people
>> don't like my squeaky wheel activism, I'm sorry, but so be it. I care more
>> about getting the NetRexx source released than I do about popularity. I'll
>> say no more here, but concentrate instead on other ways to apply gentle
>> public pressure on IBM.
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft® Windows® and Linux web and application
>> hosting - http://link.myhosting.com/myhosting
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ibm-netrexx mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ibm-netrexx mailing list
> [hidden email]
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ibm-netrexx mailing list
> [hidden email]
>

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Kermit Kiser

Re: Open source license

I think in NetRexx that is actually

sum(1)\==null

On 10/17/2010 1:40 PM, Bruce Skelly wrote:

> Any 1
> On Oct 17, 2010, at 1:35 PM, David Requena wrote:
>
>
>> n e 1?
>>
>> Anyone?
>>
>> -
>> Saludos / Kind regards,
>> David Requena
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> Sender: [hidden email]
>> Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 14:26:21
>> To: [hidden email]<[hidden email]>; IBM Netrexx<[hidden email]>
>> Reply-To: IBM Netrexx <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] Open source license
>>
>> I have a potential job depending on out sourced netrexx. Hope that doesn't bother n e 1
>>
>> Bobh
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> Enjoy your day
>> Bob Hamilton
>>

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