Re: Installer / Android
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Mike,
As I said, I don't use Android, and currently I have no plans to go in that direction. Developing programs on a phone certainly would be awkward, even with a tiny keyboard. (I think that "texting" on a numeric keypad is barbaric - it wouldn't surprise me if we end up with a generation of children with early finger and wrist joint problems.) I certainly would not suggest that the NetRexx translator should run on a phone in the Android runtime to do programming - that is too keyboard intensive. But maybe using NetRexx as a scripting language would work - i.e as a JavaScript replacement. Designing a programming facility which could be effectively used on a phone is an interesting concept. In fact, I didn't mention Android at all in my initial note - I was just responding to Chip when he suggested it as another possible installation environment. I know almost nothing about Android except that it uses the Linux kernel, and so I suggested to Chip that the Linux installer should handle any Android installation. Converting the NetRexx runtime library to run on Android phones would be reasonable but based on what Joe said, it may not be easy (or even possible). My understanding is that Google has kept some of the Android source closed, perhaps to prevent that kind of thing. Maybe Kermit can clarify this. I know there is an Android Developers Kit plugin for Eclipse and if I were going in the Android direction, I'd certainly use that. There may or may not be an easy and natural fit between that plugin and the NetRexx plugin. I'll look at it when time permits, and possibly add function to the NetRexx plugin to make using NetRexx with Android easier. As far as installers go, if native Android is where the action is, then implement an Android installer. Kicking the dead horse: users want an installation to be trivial - it should "just work". They will only do it once (per download). They don't want to have to read anything or to follow complicated (or even simple) directions. They want "click to install". Be honest: don't you? NetRexx needs to do what ever it takes to make that the user experience, the sooner the better. Bill On 10/12/2011 7:42 AM, Measel, Mike wrote: > Bill are you *really* going to try to do NetRexx development *on* an android or any other phone ? I mean seriously, come on. > > Some possibilities: > > 1) Basic version. No installer. Instructions for where the files go. > > 2) SDKs. Ready to install into the various IDEs. > > 3) Runtime. A single small jar for your phone, tablet, laptop or mainframe. > > 4) Premium. Any of the above packaged with InstallAnywhere --- your grandmother can click thru it. $9.95 > > 5) Linux ISO for virtualbox. Ubuntu, jvm, Netrexx SDK, Jedit and various IDE's (yeah, just go crazy) and it all fits on a usb stick. > > Personally I like 1 and 5. > > Proceeds from #4 go to support Aruba. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email] > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 7:02 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] Installer > > On 10/11/2011 3:49 PM, Chip Davis wrote: >> Sorry Bill, but I have to disagree with just about everything you said. > :-/ >> On 9/24/11 00:25 [hidden email] said: >>> The only things necessary for almost all users are 3 web page buttons >>> labelled: "Windows", "Mac" and "Linux/Unix", and the instructions "Click > to >>> install NetRexx". >> ... and "USS" and "Android" and ... unless you don't really care about > one of the largest environments and one of the fastest-growing ones. >>> The machinery to get the job done is of little interest, except to the >>> author(s) of the installation tool(s) >> ... and the poor schlubs that have to support the tools. >>> It is the results that count. >> A philosophy that always comes back to bite you in the butt. >>> Does it really matter how elegant or ugly it is under the covers? >> Again, to the maintainers, it's crucial. Ugly code is much harder to > fix/enhance. And mistakes here affect a disproportionately large number > users. >> Of greater importance however is that all the disparate installers are > functionally equivalent. Different platforms will demand different > processes or we would be able to design a Single Unified NetRexx Installer. > Absent a SUNI, we have to be confident that the resulting NetRexx > installations are functionally equivalent. Think of it as a Single Unified > NetRexx Installer Design. >> -Chip- > Chip, > > I seldom have problems with people who disagree with my opinions - they > might be right :) > > I don't use it, but my understanding is that Android uses the Linux kernel. > Obviously an installer for Linux/Unix should handle that, as well as for > USS (which is a Unix 95 standard Unix implementation). > > I still suggest that the large preponderance of users who use an installer > > do not have the slightest interest in the code contained in the installer, > > and that is appropriate. Obviously you have installed many packages - can > > you honestly say that out of the last 10, you seriously took interest and > action regarding the installer code in any of them? Chances are that you > (like essentially all users) clicked on "install", followed the > and then immediately began testing and using the installed package. > > As for the support of the installer code, note that I didn't say or imply > that the implementation quality should be substandard. What I said was > that the implementation was of almost no concern to the user. The primary > > criteria is that the installation works. As for a judgement that code is > "ugly" or "elegant", I simply pointed out that from a users perspective, it > doesn't matter, only that the installation is successful. > > I would be interested in hearing your evidence for "A philosophy that > always comes back to bite you in the butt". I think that is an arbitrary > aphorism which can clearly be challenged. There is nothing wrong with goal > directed efforts which place substantial emphasis on successful results. > We put men on the moon and brought them back that way. > > It would be useful if you explained what you mean when you say (that > ideally) "all the disparate installers are functionally equivalent". > > I think it is easy to say "Wouldn't a Single Unified NetRexx Installer be > nice" without actually considering what is involved in detail. This is a > case of "The perfect is the enemy of the good" - wasting time dreaming of a > pie-in-the-sky "wonderful solution" is counter productive. > > As you have said, the platforms as significantly different. I say just get > on with it - Divide and Conquer the installation problem. Decide which > platform(s) will have the most installations, and develop installers for > those first. If commonality appears, take advantage of it, but don't start > with that as an amorphous design goal. I think that is just an excuse to > procrastinate. > > It seems to me that with the current situation, in which there is no > installer, there may be a substantial number of potential users who will > unfortunately take the attitude "Why bother with this? They can't be > serious - they don't even have an installer!". > > In developing the Eclipse NetRexx plugin, I was careful to make sure that > the installation uses the standard approach for the Eclipse environment, > and that it is just as easy as any other Eclipse plugin installation. I > suggest that if the desired end result is the installation of NetRexx so > that it is usable from a command line (terminal) interface (or other > environment) that the same criteria and approach be used. > > Bill -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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My small clarification concerning NetRexx on Android:
The Android build process provided by Google automatically converts Java libraries such as NetRexxR.jar into Dalvik byte-code. I have tens of thousands of Android users running my applications that make liberal use of Rexx class objects and functions. The difficulties with creating Android applications with NetRexx lie in another area: Most UI components are dynamically built from compressed XML definitions which are referred to by integer "IDs" that have to be pre-generated before any NetRexx code that uses them can be compiled. That is why I had to create a special NetRexx build process for Android applications. I am not sure how that will affect the Eclipse Android/NetRexx processing but I would sure like to know if it can be done there! There is a project that adds scripting modules to Android but they do not use JSR223 (possibly for the same reasons that I found it problematic) and after looking at that project a few times, I do not think it would be easy to get support for NetRexx scripting there. I could be wrong though. http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting -- Kermit On 10/12/2011 1:04 PM, [hidden email] wrote: > Mike, > > As I said, I don't use Android, and currently I have no plans to go in that > direction. Developing programs on a phone certainly would be awkward, even > with a tiny keyboard. (I think that "texting" on a numeric keypad is > barbaric - it wouldn't surprise me if we end up with a generation of > children with early finger and wrist joint problems.) > > I certainly would not suggest that the NetRexx translator should run on a > phone in the Android runtime to do programming - that is too keyboard > intensive. But maybe using NetRexx as a scripting language would work - > i.e as a JavaScript replacement. Designing a programming facility which > could be effectively used on a phone is an interesting concept. > > In fact, I didn't mention Android at all in my initial note - I was just > responding to Chip when he suggested it as another possible installation > environment. I know almost nothing about Android except that it uses the > Linux kernel, and so I suggested to Chip that the Linux installer should > handle any Android installation. > > Converting the NetRexx runtime library to run on Android phones would be > reasonable but based on what Joe said, it may not be easy (or even > possible). My understanding is that Google has kept some of the Android > source closed, perhaps to prevent that kind of thing. Maybe Kermit can > clarify this. > > I know there is an Android Developers Kit plugin for Eclipse and if I were > going in the Android direction, I'd certainly use that. There may or may > not be an easy and natural fit between that plugin and the NetRexx plugin. > I'll look at it when time permits, and possibly add function to the NetRexx > plugin to make using NetRexx with Android easier. > > As far as installers go, if native Android is where the action is, then > implement an Android installer. > > Kicking the dead horse: users want an installation to be trivial - it > should "just work". They will only do it once (per download). They don't > want to have to read anything or to follow complicated (or even simple) > directions. They want "click to install". Be honest: don't you? NetRexx > needs to do what ever it takes to make that the user experience, the sooner > the better. > > Bill > > > On 10/12/2011 7:42 AM, Measel, Mike wrote: >> Bill are you *really* going to try to do NetRexx development *on* an > android or any other phone ? I mean seriously, come on. >> Some possibilities: >> >> 1) Basic version. No installer. Instructions for where the files go. >> >> 2) SDKs. Ready to install into the various IDEs. >> >> 3) Runtime. A single small jar for your phone, tablet, laptop or > mainframe. >> 4) Premium. Any of the above packaged with InstallAnywhere --- your > grandmother can click thru it. $9.95 >> 5) Linux ISO for virtualbox. Ubuntu, jvm, Netrexx SDK, Jedit and various > IDE's (yeah, just go crazy) and it all fits on a usb stick. >> Personally I like 1 and 5. >> >> Proceeds from #4 go to support Aruba. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email] >> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 7:02 PM >> To: [hidden email] >> Subject: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] Installer >> >> On 10/11/2011 3:49 PM, Chip Davis wrote: >>> Sorry Bill, but I have to disagree with just about everything you said. >> :-/ >>> On 9/24/11 00:25 [hidden email] said: >>>> The only things necessary for almost all users are 3 web page buttons >>>> labelled: "Windows", "Mac" and "Linux/Unix", and the instructions "Click >> to >>>> install NetRexx". >>> ... and "USS" and "Android" and ... unless you don't really care about >> one of the largest environments and one of the fastest-growing ones. >>>> The machinery to get the job done is of little interest, except to the >>>> author(s) of the installation tool(s) >>> ... and the poor schlubs that have to support the tools. >>>> It is the results that count. >>> A philosophy that always comes back to bite you in the butt. >>>> Does it really matter how elegant or ugly it is under the covers? >>> Again, to the maintainers, it's crucial. Ugly code is much harder to >> fix/enhance. And mistakes here affect a disproportionately large number > of >> users. >>> Of greater importance however is that all the disparate installers are >> functionally equivalent. Different platforms will demand different >> processes or we would be able to design a Single Unified NetRexx > Installer. >> Absent a SUNI, we have to be confident that the resulting NetRexx >> installations are functionally equivalent. Think of it as a Single > Unified >> NetRexx Installer Design. >>> -Chip- >> Chip, >> >> I seldom have problems with people who disagree with my opinions - they >> might be right :) >> >> I don't use it, but my understanding is that Android uses the Linux > kernel. >> Obviously an installer for Linux/Unix should handle that, as well as for >> USS (which is a Unix 95 standard Unix implementation). >> >> I still suggest that the large preponderance of users who use an installer >> >> do not have the slightest interest in the code contained in the installer, >> >> and that is appropriate. Obviously you have installed many packages - can >> >> you honestly say that out of the last 10, you seriously took interest and >> action regarding the installer code in any of them? Chances are that you >> (like essentially all users) clicked on "install", followed the > directions, >> and then immediately began testing and using the installed package. >> >> As for the support of the installer code, note that I didn't say or imply >> that the implementation quality should be substandard. What I said was >> that the implementation was of almost no concern to the user. The primary >> >> criteria is that the installation works. As for a judgement that code is >> "ugly" or "elegant", I simply pointed out that from a users perspective, > it >> doesn't matter, only that the installation is successful. >> >> I would be interested in hearing your evidence for "A philosophy that >> always comes back to bite you in the butt". I think that is an arbitrary >> aphorism which can clearly be challenged. There is nothing wrong with > goal >> directed efforts which place substantial emphasis on successful results. >> We put men on the moon and brought them back that way. >> >> It would be useful if you explained what you mean when you say (that >> ideally) "all the disparate installers are functionally equivalent". >> >> I think it is easy to say "Wouldn't a Single Unified NetRexx Installer be >> nice" without actually considering what is involved in detail. This is a >> case of "The perfect is the enemy of the good" - wasting time dreaming of > a >> pie-in-the-sky "wonderful solution" is counter productive. >> >> As you have said, the platforms as significantly different. I say just > get >> on with it - Divide and Conquer the installation problem. Decide which >> platform(s) will have the most installations, and develop installers for >> those first. If commonality appears, take advantage of it, but don't > start >> with that as an amorphous design goal. I think that is just an excuse to >> procrastinate. >> >> It seems to me that with the current situation, in which there is no >> installer, there may be a substantial number of potential users who will >> unfortunately take the attitude "Why bother with this? They can't be >> serious - they don't even have an installer!". >> >> In developing the Eclipse NetRexx plugin, I was careful to make sure that >> the installation uses the standard approach for the Eclipse environment, >> and that it is just as easy as any other Eclipse plugin installation. I >> suggest that if the desired end result is the installation of NetRexx so >> that it is usable from a command line (terminal) interface (or other >> environment) that the same criteria and approach be used. >> >> Bill > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - > http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ibm-netrexx mailing list > [hidden email] > Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by billfen
Kermit,
Thanks for the clarification. I can't be sure until I get into it, but Eclipse has excellent custom builder support, incremental builder support and ANT support so I assume it can be made to work one way or another. At this point I don't know if the Android Eclipse plugin itself is open source, but if so that will be helpful. I'm currently deciding what I should do next with the Eclipse NetRexx plugin: folding, auto completion, complex hover support, a help facility, etc., so perhaps I should add Android support to the list. Obviously I want to implement whatever will provide the most benefit to the most users, but I have not had a great deal of feedback. Bill On 10/12/2011 5:24 PM, Kermit Kiser wrote: > My small clarification concerning NetRexx on Android: > > The Android build process provided by Google automatically converts Java libraries such as NetRexxR.jar into Dalvik byte-code. I have tens of thousands of Android users running my applications that make liberal use of Rexx class objects and functions. The difficulties with creating Android applications with NetRexx lie in another area: Most UI components are dynamically built from compressed XML definitions which are referred to by integer "IDs" that have to be pre-generated before any NetRexx code that uses them can be compiled. That is why I had to create a special NetRexx build process for Android applications. I am not sure how that will affect the Eclipse Android/NetRexx processing but I would sure like to know if it can be done there! > > There is a project that adds scripting modules to Android but they do not use JSR223 (possibly for the same reasons that I found it problematic) and after looking at that project a few times, I do not think it would be easy to get support for NetRexx scripting there. I could be wrong though. > > http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting > > -- Kermit -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com - Microsoft® Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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On 10/12/2011 07:46 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Android Eclipse plugin The plugin has everything it needs, all yours needs is another menu option for the user to compile the NetRexx code and replace or hook into the the template code it creates when you start a project. That would be really great. (Let the Android Eclipse plugin do all the work...) Kermit did a great job and if you have older machine then JEdit is the way to go but using the designer and tools in the Eclipse plugin makes things go faster. Also, I get an error when I try to open a nrx file before I start any type of project in your plugin. _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by billfen
Kermit,
Bill said: "As I said, I don't use Android, and currently I have no plans to go in that direction. Developing programs on a phone certainly would be awkward, even with a tiny keyboard. (I think that "texting" on a numeric keypad is barbaric - it wouldn't surprise me if we end up with a generation of children with early finger and wrist joint problems.) I certainly would not suggest that the NetRexx translator should run on a phone in the Android runtime to do programming - that is too keyboard intensive. But maybe using NetRexx as a scripting language would work - i.e as a JavaScript replacement. Designing a programming facility which could be effectively used on a phone is an interesting concept." Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Android development always cross development, even with the generic Android tools? That is, no development takes place on the target device itself. Isn't there even a simulator? If Amazon Fire represents the future Android will be on much more interesting devices than phones. George On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:46 PM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote: Kermit, _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by billfen
Jason,
Thanks for the information. The NetRexx plugin environment is activated when a .nrx file is edited, including the menu options, etc. Since the NetRexx plugin will translate a .nrx file to a .java file into the Eclipse src folder, possibly all that is needed is to edit the .nrx file, hit Alt-T and initiate the Android build process. If the Android plugin is really well done, it all should be automatic since that is the intended design of the Eclipse JDE - automatic incremental builds all the time. But I have not checked out the Android plugin in detail yet. The Eclipse platform puts a wall between files which are in Eclipse Projects and those which are not. In general, tools are either internal or external. Since the NetRexx plugin is an internal tool, it does not work on source files which are not in projects (by design). That is the same for other plugins including the Java Development Environment, and based on my quick look at the Android plugin, the Android Development Environment plugin as well. External editors can be used from Eclipse, so you can use JEdit, Notepad, etc. if you want to. NetBeans does not make the file/project distinction, but one of the reasons I did not go that route is that the Eclipse internal tool environment provides a great deal of infrastructure for the editor, presentation and reconcile processes. The bottom line is that in Eclipse NetRexx, .nrx source files MUST be in a project. Once you get used to it, using the Eclipse project structure is quite convenient. Projects can be imported and exported in a variety of ways, and if you work with multiple projects, it is very handy. Bill On 10/13/2011 7:46 AM, Jason Monroe Martin wrote: > On 10/12/2011 07:46 PM, [hidden email] wrote: >> Android Eclipse plugin > The plugin has everything it needs, all yours needs is another menu option for the user to compile the NetRexx code and replace or hook into the the template code it creates when you start a project. That would be really great. (Let the Android Eclipse plugin do all the work...) > > Kermit did a great job and if you have older machine then JEdit is the way to go but using the designer and tools in the Eclipse plugin makes things go faster. > > Also, I get an error when I try to open a nrx file before I start any type of project in your plugin. -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft® Exchange - http://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by billfen
Rony,
Thanks for the pointer - the paper and presentation have an excellent description of the Eclipse Android plugin, and hopefully someone will install the NetRexx plugin with it and let us know how it works. Bill On 10/13/2011 10:48 AM, Rony G. Flatscher wrote: > Hi there, > > given the current discussions about Android development (which reaches far beyond mobiles) and > installations it may be interesting to get a taste of how that looks like (and where/how one would > create and test and run the created Android apps). > > A student, Dennis Robert Stöhr, took on a task for the ski-seminar 2010/11 and his results can be > seen here: <http://wi.wu.ac.at/rgf/diplomarbeiten/index.htm#sem_201102b>. If you click on the title, > you get his seminar paper, but you may want to start out by clicking on the presentation link at the > bottom of that box. > > HTH, > > ---rony -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
Re: Installer / Android
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Bill,
On 13.10.2011 17:10, [hidden email] wrote: > Thanks for the pointer - the paper and presentation have an excellent > description of the Eclipse Android plugin, and hopefully someone will > install the NetRexx plugin with it and let us know how it works. By coincidence this very same student (he has finished his studies and is about to create a business on his own) will be participating in this year's ski-seminar as well and for being admitted he will take on the task to research and talk about "Developing Android Applications with NetRexx" on his own (he needs to do all the necessary research on his own, as he is not living in Vienna anymore and cannot attend the checkpoint meetings). (He knows ooRexx, BSF4ooRexx and Java, but has never worked with NetRexx, which is a new world for him.) If I get some pointers to the different plugins and Android development environments, I would forward them to him, asking him to check them out. ---rony _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by George Hovey-2
My new phone has a dual core 1GHz processor with Linux running under Android. (Or is it Android running under Linux? ;-) Some phones (Atrix) actually have docking stations with monitors and keyboards. Android itself has now added support for peripheral devices. So even though Android development is currently done on non-Android platforms, it is possible that could change. Make that probable if I understand human nature at all! BTW: The Android emulator is virtually useless for handling the latest devices (tablets) and OS versions 3+. App testing is best done on real devices. -- Kermit On 10/13/2011 5:16 AM, George Hovey wrote: Kermit, _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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Hi Kermit,
Thanks for this valuable info. I'm watching the Amazon Fire to see if it might be a good place to break into Android programming. Actually I'm quite comfortable with cross-development, indeed prefer having all my PC tools available. Are you able to use all NetRexx facilities, eg Trace and variable precision arithmetic, on your phone? George On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 4:38 PM, Kermit Kiser <[hidden email]> wrote:
_______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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You can do Android programming without having an actual Android
device but I find that lots of things look different on real devices
from the emulator. I don't know if that is because each manufacturer
customizes Android or what.
There is also a "debug monitor" in the Android SDK that lets you connect to an emulator or a real device and display the system log and such stuff. It is very handy as it makes it pretty simple to extract the NetRexx output to a separate real time display. You can capture the NetRexx trace output that way. Not sure what you mean by variable precision arithmetic but I don't know of any limitations there. -- Kermit On 10/13/2011 6:10 PM, George Hovey wrote: Hi Kermit, _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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Kermit,
"variable precision arithmetic", ie NUMERIC DIGITS. Have you outlined what you went through to get NetRexx working under Android? I'd be interested. In the case of the CLDC device we talked about recently, several classes needed by NetRexxR were unavailable. For example, NetRexxR needs Java.io.BufferedReader. Were there similar problems with Android or does it, perhaps, implement the complete J2SE? I take your point about the emulator not being very relevant. George On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 10:24 PM, Kermit Kiser <[hidden email]> wrote:
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George -
This is going to sound trivial at first: I modified the Ant build process provided by Google to insert a NetRexx translate step between the resource build step and the Java compile step. In reality that was not so trivial because the first step is to run a build process that uses a module that generates the actual build process using templates. That is probably because it needs to scan all of the project directories for graphics images, sound files, any other resources, then compress all of the xml files that define UI components and generate an "R" (resource) module that contains name/ID cross-references for everything which is then compiled to a Java class that can be imported into the Java program compiles along with any library jars provided so the program modules can find everything at compile/runtime, after which everything is converted from Java byte-code into Dalvik byte-code and assembled into a complete package file for the application and signed with a programmer created digital certificate key. There are also optional steps for stuff like obfuscation modules which I have not used. And all of that's an oversimplification! Unfortunately, for reasons that escape me, the build structure is not stable and Google sometimes changes it enough with new platform releases that it even breaks their own developer tools and they have to patch them in a later release. Then I have to modify the NetRexx version to handle the new directory structures or whatever they did. It is almost like they want to break things for people who are not using their preferred Android Eclipse plugin. That is why it is so important to find out if Bill's NetRexx Eclipse plugin will work with the Android plugin! I did not have any problems with missing classes needed by NetRexxR. Android seems to have a fairly complete Java library implementation. For CLDC can you extract the needed Java classes and add them to the NetRexxR.jar file? Or perhaps write your own substitute versions of the missing classes? -- Kermit On 10/13/2011 9:08 PM, George Hovey wrote: Kermit, _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by billfen
Kermit,
In trying to learn a bit about Android, I watched a video at the Android developers site and learned that Eclipse is their preferred environment. I hadn't realized how extensive and sophisticated the Android plugin is - clearly Google has invested a lot of effort into it. Since there are several hundred thousand apps in Android Market, I assume that there are a large number of developers with some significant percentage of them using Eclipse. Probably anything to make app development easier, including NetRexx, will be useful to them. I'm surprised that none of them are on this list. Because Android is so complicated, I think it would be easier for an Android Eclipse user (or just any Android user) to check this out. But since no one has, I'll download the ADK and try compiling a hello world example using NetRexx to see what happens. I don't know how long it will take me to learn enough to do that, and unfortunately my time in the next few days is limited. I'll get to it as soon as I can. If there is any Android Eclipse user lurking out there, I hope they will speak up. I'd rather spend what time I have working on the plugin rather than learning Android. Bill On 10/14/2011 5:16 AM, Kermit Kiser wrote: > George - > > This is going to sound trivial at first: I modified the Ant build process provided by Google to insert a NetRexx translate step between the resource build step and the Java compile step. > > In reality that was not so trivial because the first step is to run a build process that uses a module that generates the actual build process using templates. That is probably because it needs to scan all of the project directories for graphics images, sound files, any other resources, then compress all of the xml files that define UI components and generate an "R" (resource) module that contains name/ID cross-references for everything which is then compiled to a Java class that can be imported into the Java program compiles along with any library jars provided so the program modules can find everything at compile/runtime, after which everything is converted from Java byte-code into Dalvik byte-code and assembled into a complete package file for the application and signed with a programmer created digital certificate key. There are also optional steps for stuff like obfuscation modules which I have not used. And all of that's an oversimplification! > > Unfortunately, for reasons that escape me, the build structure is not stable and Google sometimes changes it enough with new platform releases that it even breaks their own developer tools and they have to patch them in a later release. Then I have to modify the NetRexx version to handle the new directory structures or whatever they did. It is almost like they want to break things for people who are not using their preferred Android Eclipse plugin. That is why it is so important to find out if Bill's NetRexx Eclipse plugin will work with the Android plugin! > > I did not have any problems with missing classes needed by NetRexxR. Android seems to have a fairly complete Java library implementation. > > For CLDC can you extract the needed Java classes and add them to the NetRexxR.jar file? Or perhaps write your own substitute versions of the missing classes? > > -- Kermit Database: 2090/4549 - Release Date: 10/13/11 -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web LIVE Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology - http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by Kermit Kiser
Hi Kermit,
Thanks for the run down, I think it will be helpful when I can get around to Android. "For CLDC can you extract the needed Java classes and add them to the NetRexxR.jar file? Or perhaps write your own substitute versions of the missing classes?" CLDC (JSR-000139) was designed by some of the heaviest hitters in embedded programming. They did it quite a while ago when personal devices were severely memory constrained. Why does this matter today? Because PDAs aren't the only embedded devices in the world - there is a vast area of embedded controllers that must be constrained in size and/or price. The list of CLDC classes is dauntingly short (http://jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/final/jsr139/index.html), but they have been chosen shrewdly to give a lot of capability. However, there is a "dirty little secret" -- CLDC classes have the same names as J2SE classes but some have different semantics, primarily in the form of dropped methods, but in some cases in fundamental capability. For example, the I/O classes will handle Unicode or UTF-8 encodings, but only with the ISO-8859-1 character set; and data classes like Integer drop a number of J2SE methods none which, fortunately, are needed by NetRexx. NetRexx "SAY" wants a PrintWriter, which is not in CLDC; but CLDC has PrintStream (the two classes have only Object as a common ancestor) and experimentation showed the latter worked just fine. So I have produced a CLDC-specific version of NetRexxR. Everything seems to be working except Ask. I'm blocked for the moment in adding "ASK" partly because of hardware reasons related to SHAP. I hope to get these ironed out soon. Then a new problem arises: no class in CLDC has a readLine method, so I'm going to have to write some sort of substitute, perhaps as a method of RexxIO. I'm hoping this will be uneventful :) . These choices have implications for maintenance of the package (no doubt I only forsee some of them; let me know if you see other issues!). My port is only known to be valid as long as NetRexxR doesn't change. Changes to the language (new constructs and such) are great as long as they don't require new Java classes or invoke new methods of currently used Java classes in NetRexxR. If one of these changes does occur, then I must assess the situation. If I can accommodate the change, I can relax. If not, then I must document the last version of NetRexx my port is known to work with, and make sure that it remains available. If my port requires changes, but these are successful, then I probably should still record same info. That is, I should publish a table of SHAP/NetRexxR versions and the last NetRexxC version they are known to work with so a user can backtrack in case of trouble. Of course, at any time, a change might occur that makes it impossible to keep up with NetRexx. That's unfortunately out of anyone's control, but wouldn't be a disaster; the package would still be of great value in producing gizmos. I would like David's views on these archiving issues (I have negligible experience working in a collaborative environment), but his absence probably means he is working furiously and that is a good thing to be doing in Spain just now, so I'm not inclined to interrupt him! Anyway, it's not urgent. As an aside to anyone with an interest in CLDC, while working on this I developed a burning desire to see the implementation of CLDC (SHAP publishes sources for only the classes they have modified, which does not include I/O). Sun/Oracle has a reference implementation, but this seems to be available only to OEMs and bona fide researchers. However, I was able to find exactly one copy on the web at -- wait for it! -- HackChina.com. One tidbit: it comes with the tour de force KVM HotSpot compiler designed to run in a CLDC environment: its size is 70 kilobytes (not a misprint!). Regards, George On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 5:16 AM, Kermit Kiser <[hidden email]> wrote:
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George -
You may be interested in the trick I used to convert the NetRexx translator to the new "org.netrexx" packaging scheme. You may already have figured this out, but in case you are interested in how to substitute (alias) one classname for another, here is the code I used to replace the old NetRexxC module in COM\ibm\netrexx\process\NetRexxC.nrx - package COM.ibm.netrexx.process class NetRexxC deprecated extends org.netrexx.process.NetRexxC The class COM.ibm.netrexx.process.NetRexxC produced by the above code is included in the NetRexxC.jar file and allows all existing tools and scripts to access the translator using that old name as well as the new name "org.netrexx.process.NetRexxC". The old name is an alias for the new class name. No methods need be added. I used the same trick with the new NetRexx language version of the Ant NetRexx task so that it can be accessed via a "taskdef" statement even if Ant has already loaded an old version of the Java coded task. In the CLDC case, you could use something like the following: package java.io class PrintWriter extends java.io.PrintStream You could include the above class into NetRexxR.jar and every reference to a PrintWriter would automatically be converted into a PrintStream reference. You could of course add methods if needed to adjust any calls. There would not be any need to modify anything in the NetRexxR classes. However, I would recommend that you simply add the alias class to a separate "NetRexx-adapter.jar and distribute it with NetRexxR.jar so that any version of NetRexxR.jar can be substituted without modifying, rebuilding or re-jaring anything. The same process should handle any other missing classes in CLDC. It is technically possible that something could be added to NetRexxR.jar in the future that required additional Java classes, but I feel that it is not very likely. -- Kermit On 10/14/2011 11:29 AM, George Hovey wrote: Hi Kermit, _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by billfen
Bill -
I think there are a few people on this list that are experimenting with Android via both Eclipse/Java and jEdit with NetRexx. I doubt they are far enough to feel comfortable testing stuff yet. Let me know if it will help and I will zip up a complete Android/NetRexx project and send it to you for testing with Eclipse. -- Kermit On 10/14/2011 6:50 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > Kermit, > > In trying to learn a bit about Android, I watched a video at the Android > developers site and learned that Eclipse is their preferred environment. I > hadn't realized how extensive and sophisticated the Android plugin is - > clearly Google has invested a lot of effort into it. > > Since there are several hundred thousand apps in Android Market, I assume > that there are a large number of developers with some significant > percentage of them using Eclipse. Probably anything to make app > development easier, including NetRexx, will be useful to them. I'm > surprised that none of them are on this list. > > Because Android is so complicated, I think it would be easier for an > Android Eclipse user (or just any Android user) to check this out. But > since no one has, I'll download the ADK and try compiling a hello world > example using NetRexx to see what happens. I don't know how long it will > take me to learn enough to do that, and unfortunately my time in the next > few days is limited. I'll get to it as soon as I can. > > If there is any Android Eclipse user lurking out there, I hope they will > speak up. I'd rather spend what time I have working on the plugin rather > than learning Android. > > Bill > > > On 10/14/2011 5:16 AM, Kermit Kiser wrote: >> George - >> >> This is going to sound trivial at first: I modified the Ant build process > provided by Google to insert a NetRexx translate step between the resource > build step and the Java compile step. >> In reality that was not so trivial because the first step is to run a > build process that uses a module that generates the actual build process > using templates. That is probably because it needs to scan all of the > project directories for graphics images, sound files, any other resources, > then compress all of the xml files that define UI components and generate > an "R" (resource) module that contains name/ID cross-references for > everything which is then compiled to a Java class that can be imported into > the Java program compiles along with any library jars provided so the > program modules can find everything at compile/runtime, after which > everything is converted from Java byte-code into Dalvik byte-code and > assembled into a complete package file for the application and signed with > a programmer created digital certificate key. There are also optional steps > for stuff like obfuscation modules which I have not used. And all of that's > an oversimplification! >> Unfortunately, for reasons that escape me, the build structure is not > stable and Google sometimes changes it enough with new platform releases > that it even breaks their own developer tools and they have to patch them > in a later release. Then I have to modify the NetRexx version to handle the > new directory structures or whatever they did. It is almost like they want > to break things for people who are not using their preferred Android > Eclipse plugin. That is why it is so important to find out if Bill's > NetRexx Eclipse plugin will work with the Android plugin! >> I did not have any problems with missing classes needed by NetRexxR. > Android seems to have a fairly complete Java library implementation. >> For CLDC can you extract the needed Java classes and add them to the > NetRexxR.jar file? Or perhaps write your own substitute versions of the > missing classes? >> -- Kermit Database: 2090/4549 - Release Date: 10/13/11 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web LIVE – Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology - > http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ibm-netrexx mailing list > [hidden email] > Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ > > > Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by Kermit Kiser
On 10/15/2011 12:10 AM, Kermit Kiser wrote:
the trick I used... Not only is this an elegant "trick" but also a nod of recognition to NetRexx' heritage. My jaw has dropped in admiration of the astuteness of that solution. (Please never call that a "workaround.") Tom. _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by Kermit Kiser
On 10/15/2011 12:16 AM, Kermit Kiser wrote:
> experimenting with Android via both Eclipse/Java and jEdit with NetRexx Hey! Don't forget Google's AppInventor (soon to be FOSS). It's ideal for the "point and click" developer crowd. Why, I even took a look at it myself. t++ _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by billfen
Here are a couple of hints for first time Eclipse users who want to play
with Android and NetRexx. First, the directions at http://developer.android.com/sdk/installing.html may lead you down the wrong path. They recommend that the "Eclipse Classic" package be downloaded: Wrong! - it will cause you grief. Download the "Eclipse IDE for Java Developers" version (its smaller too) from here: http://eclipse.org/downloads/ The rest of the directions at the Android site work reasonably well, including how to install the Android plugin - the ADK takes a while and the install is generally painless under windows - I don't know about others. To install the NetRexx plugin, go to Help-> Eclipse Marketplace, then search for NetRexx and click install. Very simple. Kermit, that is as far as I have gotten. If you can send me a relatively simple NetRexx project, it would help a lot - I was going to start with the hello world example, but that would require translating back from Java to NetRexx. Thanks for the offer - If it is not open source I will protect it appropriately. ( [hidden email] ) Bill On 10/15/2011 1:16 AM, Kermit Kiser wrote: > Bill - > > I think there are a few people on this list that are experimenting with Android via both Eclipse/Java and jEdit with NetRexx. I doubt they are far enough to feel comfortable testing stuff yet. > > Let me know if it will help and I will zip up a complete Android/NetRexx project and send it to you for testing with Eclipse. > > -- Kermit -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web _______________________________________________ Ibm-netrexx mailing list [hidden email] Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/ |
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