License Question?

[Tom Maynard]

On 09/07/2012 01:05 PM, Measel, Mike wrote:

translation:  eclipse is large pain in the transaxle

For folks coming into the Java (or JVM) world from a corporate Microsoft Visual Studio environment, accustomed to a full suite of development tools, a full-blown, auto-completing, syntax colorizing editor ... with compiler, stepping debugger, code profiler, yada-yada -- for those folks, Eclipse can create a comfortable transition.  Things they expect will (mostly) be there, and things will behave (mostly) as they expect them to.

For someone coming from a "leaner and meaner" command line oriented development environment, it's a sledgehammer vs mosquito situation: it works, but it's much more tool than necessary.

So, the choice ultimately hinges on your expectations: all the options, there at your fingertips (Eclipse), or just the basics to get the job done (jEdit).

That being said, I use neither.  I prefer Vim as my editor, and the command line as my "compiler" (so to speak).  Someday, when I'm feeling particularly energetic, I may actually write a syntax colorizing plugin for Vim ... but NetRexx is such a small language that I don't really feel the need for it.

Again: it's entirely up to you ... you pays your money, you takes your choice.

(And yes, I realize that I haven't helped you toward your decision one iota.)

Tom.


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[rvjansen]

Vim's ooRexx mode should bring you more than halfway there - Rony knows where to find it.

Best regards,

René

On 7 sep. 2012, at 21:05, Tom Maynard <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 09/07/2012 01:05 PM, Measel, Mike wrote:

translation:  eclipse is large pain in the transaxle

For folks coming into the Java (or JVM) world from a corporate Microsoft Visual Studio environment, accustomed to a full suite of development tools, a full-blown, auto-completing, syntax colorizing editor ... with compiler, stepping debugger, code profiler, yada-yada -- for those folks, Eclipse can create a comfortable transition.  Things they expect will (mostly) be there, and things will behave (mostly) as they expect them to.

For someone coming from a "leaner and meaner" command line oriented development environment, it's a sledgehammer vs mosquito situation: it works, but it's much more tool than necessary.

So, the choice ultimately hinges on your expectations: all the options, there at your fingertips (Eclipse), or just the basics to get the job done (jEdit).

That being said, I use neither.  I prefer Vim as my editor, and the command line as my "compiler" (so to speak).  Someday, when I'm feeling particularly energetic, I may actually write a syntax colorizing plugin for Vim ... but NetRexx is such a small language that I don't really feel the need for it.

Again: it's entirely up to you ... you pays your money, you takes your choice.

(And yes, I realize that I haven't helped you toward your decision one iota.)

Tom.

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[Tom Maynard]

On 09/07/2012 03:13 PM, René Jansen wrote:
> Vim's ooRexx mode should bring you more than halfway there - Rony
> knows where to find it.
>

As usual, Google is my friend: http://goo.gl/NUU1i

A full Vim installation should (probably) already have this ... but my
habit of naming my files with a .nrx extension wouldn't activate it.

I may give it a shot!

Thanks.
Tom.

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[Kermit Kiser]

I am a jedit user just learning eclipse also so I don't know any more than you. But I have the impression that where jedit is first an editor and second an ide, eclipse is first an ide and secondly a general purpose editor. Eclipse probably has better and more integrated developer features like code completion, compiling and debugging which are more addon with jedit. Jedit is probably more flexible for non-programming tasks.

Kermit
--
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

[hidden email] wrote:

Does eclipse do everything for me that jedit is doing now?

I can not get pugins to work in the latest release.

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[billfen]

I've found that the 80-20 rule seems to apply with syntax coloring. Many
users are happy with just the basics of keywords, comments, etc. and
just about all the common editors provide that.

Of course you get what you pay for.  The Eclipse plugin provides
extremely complex coloring options, including different fonts with
different sizes and options (underline, etc), foreground and background
colors, right down to the keyword and detailed punctuation level.  But
for just about everybody it is overkill, except perhaps the error coloring.

The next level of coloring is semantic rather than syntax based, and my
intention is to move the plugin in that direction.  I just have to
provide coloring options from the data in the AST, so that class names
can be colored differently from method names, etc.

Bill

On 9/7/2012 4:21 PM, Tom Maynard wrote:

> On 09/07/2012 03:13 PM, René Jansen wrote:
>> Vim's ooRexx mode should bring you more than halfway there - Rony
>> knows where to find it.
>>
>
> As usual, Google is my friend: http://goo.gl/NUU1i
>
> A full Vim installation should (probably) already have this ... but my
> habit of naming my files with a .nrx extension wouldn't activate it.
>
> I may give it a shot!
>
> Thanks.
> Tom.
>
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>
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[Jason Martin]

Do you have netrexx syntax files for Vim?

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Tom Maynard <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 09/07/2012 01:05 PM, Measel, Mike wrote:

translation:  eclipse is large pain in the transaxle

For folks coming into the Java (or JVM) world from a corporate Microsoft Visual Studio environment, accustomed to a full suite of development tools, a full-blown, auto-completing, syntax colorizing editor ... with compiler, stepping debugger, code profiler, yada-yada -- for those folks, Eclipse can create a comfortable transition.  Things they expect will (mostly) be there, and things will behave (mostly) as they expect them to.

For someone coming from a "leaner and meaner" command line oriented development environment, it's a sledgehammer vs mosquito situation: it works, but it's much more tool than necessary.

So, the choice ultimately hinges on your expectations: all the options, there at your fingertips (Eclipse), or just the basics to get the job done (jEdit).

That being said, I use neither.  I prefer Vim as my editor, and the command line as my "compiler" (so to speak).  Someday, when I'm feeling particularly energetic, I may actually write a syntax colorizing plugin for Vim ... but NetRexx is such a small language that I don't really feel the need for it.

Again: it's entirely up to you ... you pays your money, you takes your choice.

(And yes, I realize that I haven't helped you toward your decision one iota.)

Tom.

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[Tom Maynard]

On 09/07/2012 04:54 PM, Jason Martin wrote:
> Do you have netrexx syntax files for Vim?

I do not, but as René pointed out the ooRexx syntax file will cover a
lot of ground there.  I haven't tried it, though.

Maybe we can lobby Rony (or persuade him with beer?) to produce one --
or at least guide someone through the process.

As I said I simply haven't been motivated strongly enough to try my own.

Tom.

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[Jason Martin]

Just for the record I like jEdit and Eclipse but both feel heavy for me. The Eclipse plugin for NetRexx makes Android development a snap. Write, click to compile and it does have the best color syntax highlighting. jEdit runs in a lot more places. For the last couple of months I have been using gedit on ubuntu with the syntax file I added to it. That file really needs to be summited to the GtkSourceView project. With it any editor that uses GtkSourceView can use it. (Anjuta, geany, gedit and others.) I also did a partial one for Scite but did not finish it. Vim, I would love to have one for but I not had time to do one. Kate in KDE is really good and should also be easy to do a syntax file for but I have not used KDE in a while.

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[ThSITC]

Hi Bill, and all,

   I would like to know *who in this group* already has tried *both jEdit and Eclipse* ... :-)

I'm now using jEdit sonce approx 2 years regularly, switching from UltraEdit after jEdit performance
(e.g. computer performance) did improve so drastically since my first tries with jEdit *years ago*.

I'm, however, still using the *console mode* for all of my developments, e.g., I'm *not* currenlty
using *neither* NetRexxScript *nor* NetRexxDE for my regular work, also I did try them, as well.

I did now download Bill's NetRexx plugin for Eclipse, and did have Eclipse on my machine already
for a whoile, but did *not* use it for daily work either.

Major reason for using the *console mode* personally, still, is, that I did build my own set of
'commands' for my daily work over the past years, which actually are small NetRexx programs
call by a proper MS DOC small batch file of the same name.

For historic reasons, I am just quicker in this mode for my developments, as many of the *commands*
I'm using are simply replicates of the old GEISCO Mark III commands I did work with over the
past 40 years ...

Now, giving you my background, again, my question, again:

Has somebody used *both alternatives* with NetRexx and may advise the whole *group* here
with the *pros* and *cons* of each approach?

Even more interesting, is there any document abailable summarising the possible
pitfalls and give advise how to avoid them ?

Have a nice weekend, anyway,
Thomas Schneider.
=============================================================================
Am 07.09.2012 20:16, schrieb Bill Fenlason:

Kenneth, did you mean jedit plugins or Eclipse plugins?

Eclipse is certainly not for everyone, and it takes considerable time to learn and understand it.  Eclipse is project based, and often used for major sized efforts. 

For just hacking some NetRexx code (and if you already know jedit), jedit is probably a better choice.

I don't know jedit, so I can't tell you what it does that Eclipse does not.  If you want to try Eclipse and the NetRexx plugin for it, I'll be glad to help.

Bill

On 9/7/2012 2:05 PM, Measel, Mike wrote:

That’s kind of like comparing an Avalon and a GT-1.

 

Most people prefer the Avalon for daily use.  But some people like driving the GT1 to the grocery.

 

Lots of discussion here lately about how to make a NetRexx turbocharger for the GT1.

 

Me, I like leather seats and cold AC.   ( translation:  eclipse is large pain in the transaxle )

 

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2012 12:46 PM
To: IBM Netrexx
Subject: [Ibm-netrexx] jedit vs. eclipse

 

Does eclipse do everything for me that jedit is doing now?

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[kenner]

I thought if the ejc compiler in the netrexxC.jar file is in the classpath that the "BatchCompiler" should get found. Argh.

NetRexx Envirotest version 1.4
Java properties:
java.version: 1.7.0_05
java.home: C:\Program Files\Java\jre7
java.class.path: ..\
java.library.path: C:\WINDOWS\system32;C:\WINDOWS\Sun\Java\bin;C:\WINDOWS\system32;C:\WINDOWS;.;H:\keklein\;C:\Users\keklein\REXX\NetRexx\nr301\bin;C:\Program Files\vim\vim73;C:\Program Files\IBM\Personal Communications\;C:\Program Files\IBM\Trace Facility\;C:\Program Files\Java\jdk1.6.0_18\bin;C:\Program Files\QuickTime\QTSystem\;C:\WINDOWS;C:\WINDOWS\system32;C:\WINDOWS\System32\Wbem;H:\keklein\My Documents\apache-ant-1.8.2\bin;.
java.ext.dirs: C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\ext;C:\WINDOWS\Sun\Java\lib\ext
os.name: Windows 7
os.arch: x86
os.version: 6.1
ANT_HOME: H:\keklein\My Documents\apache-ant-1.8.2
HOME: H:
HOMEPATH: \
USERPROFILE: C:\Users\KEKLEIN
Beginning scan for Java and NetRexx runtime or compiler programs:
Checking java.home
found:C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\ext\tools.jar
Checking java.home parent
found:C:\Program Files\Java\jdk1.7.0_05\lib\tools.jar
found:C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\ext\tools.jar
Checking java.home grandparent
Checking Java extension directories
found:C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\ext\NetRexxC.jar
found:C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\ext\tools.jar
Checking Java classpath directories
found:..\\NetRexxC.jar
found:..\\lib\tools.jar
Checking System path directories
found:C:\WINDOWS\system32\java.exe
found:C:\WINDOWS\system32\java.exe
found:C:\Users\keklein\REXX\NetRexx\nr301\bin\nrc.bat
found:C:\Users\keklein\REXX\NetRexx\nr301\bin\nrc.cmd
found:C:\Users\keklein\REXX\NetRexx\nr301\bin\NetRexxC.sh
found:C:\Users\keklein\REXX\NetRexx\nr301\bin\NetRexxC.cmd
found:C:\Users\keklein\REXX\NetRexx\nr301\bin\NetRexxC.bat
found:C:\WINDOWS\system32\java.exe
Checking Ant directory
Checking home directory
Checking homepath directory
Checking userprofile directory
setting the netrexx_java

C:\Users\KEKLEIN\REXX\NetRexx\bjcp9+  Mon 09/10/2012 11:17:58.28      
 > set netrexxc.bat_run=no

C:\Users\KEKLEIN\REXX\NetRexx\bjcp9+  Mon 09/10/2012 11:17:58.28      
 > if not 'fcgui.nrx' == '-run' goto compile

C:\Users\KEKLEIN\REXX\NetRexx\bjcp9+  Mon 09/10/2012 11:17:58.28      
 > java -Dnrx.compiler=ecj org.netrexx.process.NetRexxC fcgui.nrx        
NetRexx portable processor, version NetRexx 3.01, build 40-20120823-0156
Copyright (c) RexxLA, 2011,2012.  All rights reserved.
Parts Copyright (c) IBM Corporation, 1995,2008.
  1931 classes imported from 'javax.swing.'
  72 classes imported from 'java.text.'
  440 classes imported from 'javax.swing.text.'
  3 classes imported from 'netrexx.lang.Rexx'
  Loaded public class 'java.lang.Object'
  Loaded public abstract class 'java.awt.event.KeyAdapter'
  Loaded public abstract interface class 'java.awt.event.KeyListener'
  Loaded public abstract interface class 'java.util.EventListener'
  Loaded public abstract interface class 'java.awt.event.ActionListener'
  Loaded public class 'java.awt.GridBagConstraints'
  Loaded public abstract class 'java.awt.event.WindowAdapter'
  Loaded public abstract interface class 'java.awt.event.WindowListener'
  Loaded public abstract interface class 'java.awt.event.WindowStateListener'
  Loaded public abstract interface class 'java.awt.event.WindowFocusListener'
Translating 'fcgui.nrx' [Pass 1]
  === class fcgui === [pass 1]
      Loaded public abstract interface class 'java.lang.Cloneable'
      Loaded public abstract interface class 'java.io.Serializable'
      Loaded public class 'netrexx.lang.Rexx'
      Loaded public abstract class 'java.awt.Component'
      Loaded public class 'java.awt.Container'
      Loaded public class 'java.awt.Window'
      Loaded public class 'java.awt.Frame'
      Loaded public class 'javax.swing.JFrame'
      Loaded public abstract class 'javax.swing.JComponent'
      Loaded public abstract class 'javax.swing.text.JTextComponent'
      Loaded public class 'javax.swing.JTextField'
      Loaded public abstract class 'javax.swing.AbstractButton'
      Loaded public class 'javax.swing.JButton'
      Loaded public abstract interface class 'javax.swing.Icon'
      Loaded public final class 'java.lang.String'
      Loaded public abstract interface class 'java.lang.Comparable'
      Loaded public abstract interface class 'java.lang.CharSequence'
      Loaded public class 'javax.swing.JTextArea'
    method main [line 67]
    method LoadTable [line 129]
      Loaded public class 'java.lang.Throwable'
      Loaded public class 'java.lang.Exception'
      Loaded public class 'java.io.IOException'
      Loaded public class 'java.lang.RuntimeException'
      Loaded public class 'java.lang.Error'
    method fcgui [line 156]
    method DrawTheCard [line 165]
    method ShowNextCard [line 309]
    method Submit_Check [line 352]
    method keyTyped [line 393]
      Loaded public class 'java.util.EventObject'
      Loaded public abstract class 'java.awt.AWTEvent'
      Loaded public class 'java.awt.event.ComponentEvent'
      Loaded public abstract class 'java.awt.event.InputEvent'
      Loaded public class 'java.awt.event.KeyEvent'
    method keyReleased [line 413]
    method getNextCardNum [line 447]
    method actionPerformed [line 479]
      Loaded public class 'java.awt.event.ActionEvent'
    method DisplayScore [line 496]
    method reset [line 504]
    method elapsed [line 509]
    method GetRand [line 518]
    method WriteAndLeave [line 522]
    method GuiClose [line 540]

  === class CloseWindowAdapter === [pass 1]
    method windowClosing [line 549]
      Loaded public class 'java.awt.event.WindowEvent'
Program fcgui.nrx [pass 2, over 645 clauses]
  === class fcgui ===
    function main(String[])
      Loaded public class 'IsFile'
      Loaded public final class 'java.lang.System'
      Loaded public class 'netrexx.lang.BadArgumentException'
      signals IOException
    function LoadTable(Rexx)
      Loaded public abstract class 'java.io.Reader'
      Loaded public class 'java.io.InputStreamReader'
      Loaded public class 'java.io.FileReader'
      Loaded public class 'java.io.File'
      Loaded public abstract interface class 'netrexx.lang.RexxOperators'
      Loaded public final class 'java.io.FileDescriptor'
      Loaded public class 'java.io.FileNotFoundException'
      Loaded public class 'java.io.BufferedReader'
    constructor fcgui(int,boolean,boolean)
    method DrawTheCard
      Loaded public abstract class 'java.awt.GraphicsConfiguration'
      Loaded public class 'java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException'
      Loaded public class 'java.awt.HeadlessException'
      Loaded public class 'java.awt.GridBagLayout'
      Loaded public abstract interface class 'java.awt.LayoutManager'
      Loaded public abstract interface class 'java.awt.LayoutManager2'
      Loaded public class 'java.awt.Insets'
      Loaded public abstract class 'java.awt.Toolkit'
      Loaded public abstract class 'java.awt.geom.Dimension2D'
      Loaded public class 'java.awt.Dimension'
      Loaded public class 'java.awt.Color'
      Loaded public class 'java.awt.Font'
      Loaded public abstract interface class 'javax.swing.Scrollable'
      Loaded public abstract interface class 'javax.accessibility.Accessible'
      Loaded public class 'javax.swing.TransferHandler'
      Loaded private abstract interface class 'javax.swing.TransferHandler.HasGetTransferHandler'
      Loaded public abstract interface class 'java.awt.image.ImageObserver'
      Loaded public abstract interface class 'java.awt.MenuContainer'
      Loaded public abstract interface class 'javax.swing.text.Document'
      Loaded public abstract interface class 'java.awt.ItemSelectable'
      Loaded public abstract interface class 'javax.swing.SwingConstants'
    method ShowNextCard(Rexx)
      Loaded public class 'javax.swing.SwingUtilities'
      Loaded public abstract class 'java.text.Format'
      Loaded public abstract class 'java.text.DateFormat'
      Loaded public class 'java.text.SimpleDateFormat'
      Loaded public class 'java.util.Date'
    method Submit_Check(String)
      Loaded public class 'javax.swing.JOptionPane'
      Loaded public abstract interface class 'javax.swing.WindowConstants'
      Loaded public abstract interface class 'javax.swing.RootPaneContainer'
    method keyTyped(KeyEvent)
      Loaded public class 'netrexx.lang.NotCharacterException'
      overrides KeyAdapter.keyTyped(KeyEvent)
      implements KeyListener.keyTyped(KeyEvent)
    method keyReleased(KeyEvent)
      overrides KeyAdapter.keyReleased(KeyEvent)
      implements KeyListener.keyReleased(KeyEvent)
    method getNextCardNum(int,boolean)
    method actionPerformed(ActionEvent)
      implements ActionListener.actionPerformed(ActionEvent)
    method DisplayScore(int)
    function reset
    function elapsed
      Loaded public class 'java.lang.IllegalArgumentException'
      Loaded public class 'java.lang.NumberFormatException'
    function GetRand(int)
      Loaded public final class 'java.lang.Math'
    function WriteAndLeave(Rexx)
      Loaded public abstract class 'java.io.Writer'
      Loaded public class 'java.io.OutputStreamWriter'
      Loaded public class 'java.io.FileWriter'
      Loaded public class 'java.io.PrintWriter'
      Loaded public abstract class 'java.io.OutputStream'
      Loaded public abstract interface class 'java.lang.Appendable'
      Loaded public abstract interface class 'java.io.Closeable'
      Loaded public abstract interface class 'java.io.Flushable'
      Loaded public abstract interface class 'java.lang.AutoCloseable'
    function GuiClose

  === class CloseWindowAdapter ===
    method windowClosing(WindowEvent)
      overrides WindowAdapter.windowClosing(WindowEvent)
Compiling: '-nowarn -classpath .;C:\Users\KEKLEIN\REXX\NetRexx\nr301\lib\NetRexxC.jar;C:\Program Files\Java\jdk1.7.0_05\lib\tools.jar;C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\alt-rt.jar;C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\charsets.jar;C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\deploy.jar;C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\javaws.jar;C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\jce.jar;C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\jfr.jar;C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\jsse.jar;C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\management-agent.jar;C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\plugin.jar;C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\resources.jar;C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\rt.jar;C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\ext\dnsns.jar;C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\ext\localedata.jar;C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\ext\NetRexxC.jar;C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\ext\sunec.jar;C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\ext\sunjce_provider.jar;C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\ext\sunmscapi.jar;C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\ext\sunpkcs11.jar;C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\ext\tools.jar;C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\ext\zipfs.jar C:\Users\KEKLEIN\REXX\NetRexx\bjcp9\fcgui.java'
Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: org/eclipse/jdt/core/compiler/batch/BatchCompiler
        at org.netrexx.process.RxTranslator.compile(RxTranslator.nrx:625)
        at org.netrexx.process.NetRexxC.process(NetRexxC.nrx:239)
        at org.netrexx.process.NetRexxC.main2(NetRexxC.nrx:165)
        at org.netrexx.process.NetRexxC.main2(NetRexxC.nrx:154)
        at org.netrexx.process.NetRexxC.main2(NetRexxC.nrx:152)
        at org.netrexx.process.NetRexxC.main(NetRexxC.nrx:91)
Caused by: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: org.eclipse.jdt.core.compiler.batch.BatchCompiler
        at java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run(Unknown Source)
        at java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run(Unknown Source)
        at java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method)
        at java.net.URLClassLoader.findClass(Unknown Source)
        at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(Unknown Source)
        at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(Unknown Source)
        ... 6 more

C:\Users\KEKLEIN\REXX\NetRexx\bjcp9+  Mon 09/10/2012 11:17:59.13      
 > if errorlevel 2 goto quit

C:\Users\KEKLEIN\REXX\NetRexx\bjcp9+  Mon 09/10/2012 11:17:59.13      
 > if no == no goto quit


Kenneth Klein

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[kenner]

Nevermind...   ;-)


I explicity put the ecj-4.2.jar in my classpath and now it is found.


Kenneth Klein


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[Kermit Kiser]

That does not seem correct. My research shows that the current NetRexx compiler cannot find a Java compiler (javac or ecj) if you copy NetRexxC.jar to the Java lib\ext directory (as some NetRexxers erroneously recommend) unless you also copy the selected Java compiler (tools.jar or ecj-4.2.jar) into the lib\ext directory. Classpath is bypassed in that scenario for the compiler call. Your previous post showed that NetRexxC.jar and tools.jar were in the Java lib\ext directory but ecj-4.2.jar was not. Fixing that problem requires putting ecj-4.2.jar in the ext directory also or removing NetRexxC.jar from the ext directory.

-- Kermit

On 9/10/2012 7:12 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

Nevermind...   ;-)


I explicity put the ecj-4.2.jar in my classpath and now it is found.


Kenneth Klein

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[kenner]

KK:

Not to beat a dead horse, but the netrexx compiler was finding the ecj compiler when I still had the netrexx compiler in the java ext directory. It was first deleted from there this morning.

NetRexx Envirotest version 1.4
Java properties:
java.version: 1.7.0_05
java.home: C:\Program Files\Java\jdk1.7.0_05\jre
java.class.path: .;C:\Users\KEKLEIN\REXX\NetRexx\nr301\lib\NetRexxC.jar;C:\Users\KEKLEIN\REXX\NetRexx\nr301\lib\ecj-4.2.jar;C:\Program Files\Java\jdk1.7.0_05\lib\tools.jar;C:\Program Files\Java\jre6\lib\ext\QTJava.zip
java.library.path: C:\Program Files\Java\jdk1.7.0_05\bin;C:\WINDOWS\Sun\Java\bin;C:\WINDOWS\system32;C:\WINDOWS;.;H:\keklein\;C:\Users\keklein\REXX\NetRexx\nr301\bin;C:\Program Files\vim\vim73;C:\Program Files\IBM\Personal Communications\;C:\Program Files\IBM\Trace Facility\;C:\Program Files\Java\jdk1.7.0_05\bin;C:\Program Files\QuickTime\QTSystem\;C:\WINDOWS;C:\WINDOWS\system32;C:\WINDOWS\System32\Wbem;H:\keklein\My Documents\apache-ant-1.8.2\bin;.
java.ext.dirs: C:\Program Files\Java\jdk1.7.0_05\jre\lib\ext;C:\WINDOWS\Sun\Java\lib\ext
os.name: Windows 7
os.arch: x86
os.version: 6.1
ANT_HOME: H:\keklein\My Documents\apache-ant-1.8.2
HOME: H:
HOMEPATH: \
USERPROFILE: C:\Users\KEKLEIN
Beginning scan for Java and NetRexx runtime or compiler programs:
Checking java.home
Checking java.home parent
found:C:\Program Files\Java\jdk1.7.0_05\bin\java.exe
found:C:\Program Files\Java\jdk1.7.0_05\lib\tools.jar
Checking java.home grandparent
found:C:\Program Files\Java\jdk1.7.0_05\lib\tools.jar
found:C:\Program Files\Java\jre7\lib\ext\tools.jar
Checking Java extension directories
Checking Java classpath directories
found:C:\Users\KEKLEIN\REXX\NetRexx\nr301\lib\NetRexxC.jar
found:C:\Users\KEKLEIN\REXX\NetRexx\nr301\lib\NetRexxC.jar
found:C:\Program Files\Java\jdk1.7.0_05\lib\tools.jar
Checking System path directories
found:C:\Program Files\Java\jdk1.7.0_05\bin\java.exe
found:C:\Program Files\Java\jdk1.7.0_05\lib\tools.jar
found:C:\WINDOWS\system32\java.exe
found:C:\Users\keklein\REXX\NetRexx\nr301\bin\nrc.bat
found:C:\Users\keklein\REXX\NetRexx\nr301\bin\nrc.cmd
found:C:\Users\keklein\REXX\NetRexx\nr301\bin\NetRexxC.sh
found:C:\Users\keklein\REXX\NetRexx\nr301\bin\NetRexxC.cmd
found:C:\Users\keklein\REXX\NetRexx\nr301\bin\NetRexxC.bat
found:C:\Program Files\Java\jdk1.7.0_05\bin\java.exe
found:C:\Program Files\Java\jdk1.7.0_05\lib\tools.jar
found:C:\WINDOWS\system32\java.exe
Checking Ant directory
Checking home directory
Checking homepath directory
Checking userprofile directory


Kenneth Klein

Kermit Kiser <[hidden email]>
Sent by: [hidden email]

09/11/2012 06:10 AM

Please respond to
IBM Netrexx <[hidden email]>

To	IBM Netrexx <[hidden email]>
cc
Subject	Re: [Ibm-netrexx] eternal headache of the java classpath saga

That does not seem correct. My research shows that the current NetRexx compiler cannot find a Java compiler (javac or ecj) if you copy NetRexxC.jar to the Java lib\ext directory (as some NetRexxers erroneously recommend) unless you also copy the selected Java compiler (tools.jar or ecj-4.2.jar) into the lib\ext directory. Classpath is bypassed in that scenario for the compiler call. Your previous post showed that NetRexxC.jar and tools.jar were in the Java lib\ext directory but ecj-4.2.jar was not. Fixing that problem requires putting ecj-4.2.jar in the ext directory also or removing NetRexxC.jar from the ext directory.

-- Kermit


On 9/10/2012 7:12 AM, kenneth.klein@... wrote:

Nevermind...   ;-)


I explicity put the ecj-4.2.jar in my classpath and now it is found.


Kenneth Klein



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[ThSITC]

As I already did advise, sooo many times:

The sequence of action has to be:

1.) Copy (*or*, better, *move* ) tools.jar to ...\lib\ext\ after download of any new Java developers kit (the proper ones, of course)
2.) Copy (*or* better, *move* ) any and all NetRexx Tools, including the NetRexxC.jar in question
to the same ...\lib\ext\ directory! To *all* those, when you do have multiple Java jdk's installed.

Then, and *only then*, you will need *no classpath modifications *at all*.

*And*, Kermit, your can simply *quote me by Name* (Thomas Schneider)* for this recommandation.

I would prefer this to *some NetRexxers* ;-)

Have a nice day, all of you :-).

Thomas Schneider.
CEO ThSITC IT Consulting KG (www.thsitc.com)
==========================================================================================
PS: Only 7 teeth left for extraction next week! Quite a pain, but what shalls (if that is the correct english word).

By 1. October I will have the *new provisorium, with 32 teeth, again (3d one, of course, removable on demand ;-)

(Totally unrelated to NetRexx, of course).
((But I seem to remember that Mr. Mike F. Colishaw did loos some teeth on a fly from somewhere to elsewhere
by getting the business case of another pessanger into his mouth; For sure, the checket crones fid cost him a hell ...
... hopefully some insurance company of the other passenger did pay the cost !!!)
(((MFC, please do correct me if my memory does serve me wrong (maybe *starting Alzheimer*, then ??)))

==========================================================================================

Am 11.09.2012 12:10, schrieb Kermit Kiser:

That does not seem correct. My research shows that the current NetRexx compiler cannot find a Java compiler (javac or ecj) if you copy NetRexxC.jar to the Java lib\ext directory (as some NetRexxers erroneously recommend) unless you also copy the selected Java compiler (tools.jar or ecj-4.2.jar) into the lib\ext directory. Classpath is bypassed in that scenario for the compiler call. Your previous post showed that NetRexxC.jar and tools.jar were in the Java lib\ext directory but ecj-4.2.jar was not. Fixing that problem requires putting ecj-4.2.jar in the ext directory also or removing NetRexxC.jar from the ext directory.

-- Kermit

On 9/10/2012 7:12 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

Nevermind...   ;-)


I explicity put the ecj-4.2.jar in my classpath and now it is found.


Kenneth Klein

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[rvjansen]

No, it is of great importance we get clarity about this behavior, for
most jvm implementations; we must find out which measures will help most
people.

The compiler problem would be over if we delivered a NetRexxC.jar with
the compiler in it. It will grow with about a megabyte, but I am under
the impression that size constraints are most important to the runtime
package NetRexxR.jar.

This will not fix the java.lang.Object.class not found issue, but that
is a problem that occurs with a very low frequency.
How do we think about an included compiler with a changed default in
3.02?

René.

On 2012-09-11 14:15, [hidden email] wrote:
> KK:
>
> Not to beat a dead horse, but the netrexx compiler was finding the
> ecj
> compiler when I still had the netrexx compiler in the java ext
> directory. It was first deleted from there this morning.
>

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[rvjansen]

Thomas,

this is not a good solution, for several reasons outlined earlier, and
in extenso in the NetRexx User's Guide. The fact of the matter is that
serious java development is impossible without knowing how to maintain a
classpath. The code depency issues in your own work are even caused by
depending on a stale copy in the ext lib. I wish you would stop
suggesting this to people on the list. In the light of Kermit's recent
research, moving the tools.jar library is even worse than copying it.

best regards,

René.



On 2012-09-11 14:45, Thomas Schneider wrote:

> As I already did advise, sooo many times:
>
>  The sequence of action has to be:
>
>  1.) Copy (*or*, better, *move* ) tools.jar to ...libext after
> download of any new Java developers kit (the proper ones, of course)
>  2.) Copy (*or* better, *move* ) any and all NetRexx Tools, including
> the NetRexxC.jar in question
>  to the same ...libext directory! To *all* those, when you do have
> multiple Java jdk's installed.
>
>  Then, and *only then*, you will need *no classpath modifications *at
> all*.
>
>  *And*, Kermit, your can simply *quote me by Name* (Thomas
> Schneider)*
> for this recommandation.
>
>  I would prefer this to *some NetRexxers* ;-)
>

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[billfen]

On 9/11/2012 8:57 AM, rvjansen wrote:
> this is not a good solution, for several reasons outlined earlier, and
> in extenso in the NetRexx User's Guide. The fact of the matter is that
> serious java development is impossible without knowing how to maintain
> a classpath.
A couple of points:

First, if we are at all targeting the beginning programmer and non-java
programmers, wouldn't it make sense that we should be striving to hide
the mysteries of the class path from them?

Second, I continue to believe that all the classpath, tools jar and
compiler location problems are still an installation issue, and that the
proper approach for a solution is to develop a set of web based, single
click installers for each operating system (windows, OSX and linux, and
maybe android in the future).

A universal installer could be developed with its first step being to
determine the operating system, by asking if necessary.

There are few if any potential NetRexx users who prefer any kind of
detailed cookbook installation procedure to an installation which is
performed in a similar fashion to all the other programs he installs.  
For linux that may be apt, rpm or whatever, for windows it will be an
installer similar to all the other windows installers the user has used,
and for OSX it would be a process familiar to those users.

I truly do not understand why there is not universal agreement to this,
since every other position is equivalent to "we want to make the
installation of NetRexx more difficult than necessary, and different
from what you are used to".

If there are any other major and popular programs which require the
equivalent of what NetRexx does for installation, I would like to know
what they are.  Why should installing NetRexx be more difficult than
installing Java?

Unfortunately I do not have the time or expertise to develop these
installers or I would do so.

Bill

PS - talk about dead horses,,, :)

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[George Hovey-2]

Bill,
One click installation certainly seems desirable, but is it really that easy?  You mention the ease of Java installation, but Sun has vast resources.  Take a look at ooRexx's downloads (http://www.oorexx.org/download.html).  On the face of it, this looks like a massive effort.  If so, how much will be left over for NetRexx development?

I didn't fully understand the rationale for the bundling of the ecj compiler.  Given that Java is such a trouble free installation, I don't see why we couldn't just say to new users "first install Java" and point them at Sun's page.  Then we start from well defined initial conditions relatively painlessly.

Re Rene's point - if you think "serious Java development" is a significant end point of NetRexx (and it's evident not everyone does), Java issues can't be finessed.  On numerous occasions we've seen new users get up to the point where they need some Java facility (dates, Swing) and run into a brick wall.  Well intentioned sample program are just gobbledy-gook to such a user, and they're reduced to accepting them as magical incantations.  Of course, they are in no position to modify or extend the examples.  I would approach that by introducing NetRexx in two phases: 1) everything you can do without awareness of Java; 2) the rest.

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 10:27 AM, Bill Fenlason <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 9/11/2012 8:57 AM, rvjansen wrote:

this is not a good solution, for several reasons outlined earlier, and in extenso in the NetRexx User's Guide. The fact of the matter is that serious java development is impossible without knowing how to maintain a classpath.

A couple of points:

First, if we are at all targeting the beginning programmer and non-java programmers, wouldn't it make sense that we should be striving to hide the mysteries of the class path from them?

Second, I continue to believe that all the classpath, tools jar and compiler location problems are still an installation issue, and that the proper approach for a solution is to develop a set of web based, single click installers for each operating system (windows, OSX and linux, and maybe android in the future).

A universal installer could be developed with its first step being to determine the operating system, by asking if necessary.

There are few if any potential NetRexx users who prefer any kind of detailed cookbook installation procedure to an installation which is performed in a similar fashion to all the other programs he installs.  For linux that may be apt, rpm or whatever, for windows it will be an installer similar to all the other windows installers the user has used, and for OSX it would be a process familiar to those users.

I truly do not understand why there is not universal agreement to this, since every other position is equivalent to "we want to make the installation of NetRexx more difficult than necessary, and different from what you are used to".

If there are any other major and popular programs which require the equivalent of what NetRexx does for installation, I would like to know what they are.  Why should installing NetRexx be more difficult than installing Java?

Unfortunately I do not have the time or expertise to develop these installers or I would do so.

Bill

PS - talk about dead horses,,, :)

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--
"One can live magnificently in this world if one knows how to work and how to love."  --  Leo Tolstoy

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[Mike Cowlishaw]

I didn't fully understand the rationale for the bundling of the ecj compiler.  Given that Java is such a trouble free installation, I don't see why we couldn't just say to new users "first install Java" and point them at Sun's page.  Then we start from well defined initial conditions relatively painlessly. 

 

I think the difficulty here is that "first install Java" once meant enough of the Java 'ecosystem' to compile and run Java programs.  Now it is just the runtime, and it is quite hard for a new Java user to search out the compiler, etc., and in fact Oracle seems to to want to keep it that way (i.e., hard to do).   

 

Yes, installing the Java runtime is (moderately) trouble-free [but why do I have 4 runtimes on my system?].  But getting the compiler to work as well is not so easy.

 

Mike

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[billfen]

On 9/11/2012 12:03 PM, George Hovey wrote:

Bill,
One click installation certainly seems desirable, but is it really that easy?  You mention the ease of Java installation, but Sun has vast resources.  Take a look at ooRexx's downloads (http://www.oorexx.org/download.html).  On the face of it, this looks like a massive effort.  If so, how much will be left over for NetRexx development?

On the contrary, I believe the effort should be substantially easier than that required by oorexx.  For example, they have two different downloads for Windows, and since NetRexx does not contain any exe files, (i.e. it is all Java) only one Windows download should be sufficient. 

Since I know little about linux, I can't comment, but I suspect that a single version of rpm and deb files might be sufficient. 

It is interesting that the last oorexx  OSX download was for release 3.2 ( current is 4.1.1) so I suspect the OSX users are a possibly small minority.  Indeed, apparently AIX is a higher priority, since a 4.1.0 version is provided.

After all, at a minimum, what does the installer have to do besides putting the NetRexx jar in an appropriate place and insuring (by setting the path, classpath, etc.) that it (and the related compiler) are easily accessible?

I didn't fully understand the rationale for the bundling of the ecj compiler.  Given that Java is such a trouble free installation, I don't see why we couldn't just say to new users "first install Java" and point them at Sun's page.  Then we start from well defined initial conditions relatively painlessly.

"first install Java" will lead a user down a path that only installs the Java runtime.  It should read "first install the Java SDK (software development kit)".

Re Rene's point - if you think "serious Java development" is a significant end point of NetRexx (and it's evident not everyone does), Java issues can't be finessed.  On numerous occasions we've seen new users get up to the point where they need some Java facility (dates, Swing) and run into a brick wall.  Well intentioned sample program are just gobbledy-gook to such a user, and they're reduced to accepting them as magical incantations.  Of course, they are in no position to modify or extend the examples.  I would approach that by introducing NetRexx in two phases: 1) everything you can do without awareness of Java; 2) the rest.

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 10:27 AM, Bill Fenlason <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 9/11/2012 8:57 AM, rvjansen wrote:

this is not a good solution, for several reasons outlined earlier, and in extenso in the NetRexx User's Guide. The fact of the matter is that serious java development is impossible without knowing how to maintain a classpath.

A couple of points:

First, if we are at all targeting the beginning programmer and non-java programmers, wouldn't it make sense that we should be striving to hide the mysteries of the class path from them?

Second, I continue to believe that all the classpath, tools jar and compiler location problems are still an installation issue, and that the proper approach for a solution is to develop a set of web based, single click installers for each operating system (windows, OSX and linux, and maybe android in the future).

A universal installer could be developed with its first step being to determine the operating system, by asking if necessary.

There are few if any potential NetRexx users who prefer any kind of detailed cookbook installation procedure to an installation which is performed in a similar fashion to all the other programs he installs.  For linux that may be apt, rpm or whatever, for windows it will be an installer similar to all the other windows installers the user has used, and for OSX it would be a process familiar to those users.

I truly do not understand why there is not universal agreement to this, since every other position is equivalent to "we want to make the installation of NetRexx more difficult than necessary, and different from what you are used to".

If there are any other major and popular programs which require the equivalent of what NetRexx does for installation, I would like to know what they are.  Why should installing NetRexx be more difficult than installing Java?

Unfortunately I do not have the time or expertise to develop these installers or I would do so.

Bill

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