New Features for IBM NetRexx vs. 4.xx

[ThSITC]

Hi Kermit, Rene, and all,

I did, long time ago, propose some new features for IBM-NetRexx like
REPORT, PRINT, TITLE, FOOTING
as well as simple support for SCREEN I/O like SHOW, DISPLAY, ACCEPT etc.

I did specify those on KENAI, as I thought this is the *discussion
Forum* for the NetRexx ARB.

Unfortunately, all those *ideas* heve been deleted (due to lack of action).

Any chance, to get them back on KENAI ?
Thomas.

PS: I do now have the RUN-TIME Routines ready for this, I think, but am
reluctant
to change the NetRexx Compiler without former approval of the NetRexx ARB.

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[Fernando Cassia-2]

On 10/26/15, Thomas Schneider <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Kermit, Rene, and all,
>
> I did, long time ago, propose some new features for IBM-NetRexx like
> REPORT, PRINT, TITLE, FOOTING
> as well as simple support for SCREEN I/O like SHOW, DISPLAY, ACCEPT etc.
>
> I did specify those on KENAI, as I thought this is the *discussion
> Forum* for the NetRexx ARB.
>
> Unfortunately, all those *ideas* heve been deleted (due to lack of action).
>
> Any chance, to get them back on KENAI ?

Oracle is shutting down the KENAI infrastructure, long term. It will
keep running for at least a year but a migration path is desirable.

https://kenai.com/site_news

//////
Project Kenai Announcement

The Kenai.com site will be closing in the next 18-24 months. We are
working on a process to allow project owners to take delivery of their
project assets and request a redirect to the new home of their choice.
Once we have that process in place, we will update this announcement
and notify project owners. From that date the site will continue to
operate normally for one year, to allow project owners ample time to
plan the migration of active projects. While no other changes are
being made to the Kenai.com site at this time, we are still not
accepting new projects.

If you have questions please send them to the Kenai.com site administrator.
//////

FC

FC

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[ThSITC]

Hi Fernando,

I *do know* that KENAI is shutting down, as nearly all of the KENAI
subscribers do know.
www.kenai.com  is obviously moving to Java.net, as far as I do know.

For various reasons, Rene & Kermit are still sticking to Kenai.

Thomas.

PS: More interesting (for ME), is the question, whether so called 4GL
(Fourth Generation Language
features) in NetRexx wouldn't help us all in daily programming, as:

PRINT Customer_Name, Id, SUM open_amounts

????????????
Thomas.

===========================================================================

Am 26/10/2015 um 18:34 schrieb Fernando Cassia:

> On 10/26/15, Thomas Schneider <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi Kermit, Rene, and all,
>>
>> I did, long time ago, propose some new features for IBM-NetRexx like
>> REPORT, PRINT, TITLE, FOOTING
>> as well as simple support for SCREEN I/O like SHOW, DISPLAY, ACCEPT etc.
>>
>> I did specify those on KENAI, as I thought this is the *discussion
>> Forum* for the NetRexx ARB.
>>
>> Unfortunately, all those *ideas* heve been deleted (due to lack of action).
>>
>> Any chance, to get them back on KENAI ?
> Oracle is shutting down the KENAI infrastructure, long term. It will
> keep running for at least a year but a migration path is desirable.
>
> https://kenai.com/site_news
>
> //////
> Project Kenai Announcement
>
> The Kenai.com site will be closing in the next 18-24 months. We are
> working on a process to allow project owners to take delivery of their
> project assets and request a redirect to the new home of their choice.
> Once we have that process in place, we will update this announcement
> and notify project owners. From that date the site will continue to
> operate normally for one year, to allow project owners ample time to
> plan the migration of active projects. While no other changes are
> being made to the Kenai.com site at this time, we are still not
> accepting new projects.
>
> If you have questions please send them to the Kenai.com site administrator.
> //////
>
> FC
>
> FC
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ibm-netrexx mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/
>

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[Fernando Cassia-2]

On 10/26/15, Thomas Schneider <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi Fernando,
>
> I *do know* that KENAI is shutting down, as nearly all of the KENAI
> subscribers do know.
> www.kenai.com  is obviously moving to Java.net, as far as I do know.
>
> For various reasons, Rene & Kermit are still sticking to Kenai.
>
> Thomas.

Let me correct you, Java.net is ALSO shutting down. In 2012 the move
was from the old Java.net to Kenai. Now Kenai is the backend of BOTH
sites and BOTH are shutting down.

FC

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[Kermit Kiser]

Thomas --

The "features" you mention were rejected on the issue tracker not "due
to lack of action" but because they are harmful to the NetRexx language
for the following reasons:

1) The requested new instructions would add unneeded complication to
NetRexx syntax and make it harder to learn than it needs to be.
2) The requested new instructions offer NO benefit over using the
existing object library call mechanisms: myreport=REPORT(x,y,z),
myreport.print(a,b,c) etc.
3) Each programmer or application would require a unique set of these
functions therefore they must be library routines rather than core
language features.
4) The functionality approach requested is NOT object oriented like
NetRexx but is an ancient "report writer" concept. This difference in
report concepts is discussed in the Object programming intro section of
the Object Rexx reference doc.
5) No such syntax exists in classical or Object Rexx as it is NOT useful.

If you add them to Kenai again they will be rejected again.

-- Kermit

On 2015-10-26 10:26 AM, Thomas Schneider wrote:

> Hi Kermit, Rene, and all,
>
> I did, long time ago, propose some new features for IBM-NetRexx like
> REPORT, PRINT, TITLE, FOOTING
> as well as simple support for SCREEN I/O like SHOW, DISPLAY, ACCEPT etc.
>
> I did specify those on KENAI, as I thought this is the *discussion
> Forum* for the NetRexx ARB.
>
> Unfortunately, all those *ideas* heve been deleted (due to lack of
> action).
>
> Any chance, to get them back on KENAI ?
> Thomas.
>
> PS: I do now have the RUN-TIME Routines ready for this, I think, but
> am reluctant
> to change the NetRexx Compiler without former approval of the NetRexx
> ARB.
>
>
>

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[Kermit Kiser]

Interesting to hear java.net is terminal.

René knows about the end of Kenai. We have discussed (offlist)
converting the repository to GIT format and migrating to Sourceforge or
GitHub. I think our current holdup is how to save the JIRA issue
tracking data.

-- KK

On 2015-10-26 11:01 AM, Fernando Cassia wrote:

> On 10/26/15, Thomas Schneider <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi Fernando,
>>
>> I *do know* that KENAI is shutting down, as nearly all of the KENAI
>> subscribers do know.
>> www.kenai.com  is obviously moving to Java.net, as far as I do know.
>>
>> For various reasons, Rene & Kermit are still sticking to Kenai.
>>
>> Thomas.
> Let me correct you, Java.net is ALSO shutting down. In 2012 the move
> was from the old Java.net to Kenai. Now Kenai is the backend of BOTH
> sites and BOTH are shutting down.
>
> FC
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ibm-netrexx mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/
>
>
>

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[David Requena]

We were promised a migration to java.net that up until now has not materialized.

Saludos
David Requena / Gmail
  Original Message  
From: Thomas Schneider
Sent: lunes, 26 de octubre de 2015 02:45 p.m.
To: IBM Netrexx
Reply To: IBM Netrexx
Subject: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] New Features for IBM NetRexx vs. 4.xx

Hi Fernando,

I *do know* that KENAI is shutting down, as nearly all of the KENAI
subscribers do know.
www.kenai.com is obviously moving to Java.net, as far as I do know.

For various reasons, Rene & Kermit are still sticking to Kenai.

Thomas.

PS: More interesting (for ME), is the question, whether so called 4GL
(Fourth Generation Language
features) in NetRexx wouldn't help us all in daily programming, as:

PRINT Customer_Name, Id, SUM open_amounts

????????????
Thomas.

===========================================================================

Am 26/10/2015 um 18:34 schrieb Fernando Cassia:

> On 10/26/15, Thomas Schneider <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi Kermit, Rene, and all,
>>
>> I did, long time ago, propose some new features for IBM-NetRexx like
>> REPORT, PRINT, TITLE, FOOTING
>> as well as simple support for SCREEN I/O like SHOW, DISPLAY, ACCEPT etc.
>>
>> I did specify those on KENAI, as I thought this is the *discussion
>> Forum* for the NetRexx ARB.
>>
>> Unfortunately, all those *ideas* heve been deleted (due to lack of action).
>>
>> Any chance, to get them back on KENAI ?
> Oracle is shutting down the KENAI infrastructure, long term. It will
> keep running for at least a year but a migration path is desirable.
>
> https://kenai.com/site_news
>
> //////
> Project Kenai Announcement
>
> The Kenai.com site will be closing in the next 18-24 months. We are
> working on a process to allow project owners to take delivery of their
> project assets and request a redirect to the new home of their choice.
> Once we have that process in place, we will update this announcement
> and notify project owners. From that date the site will continue to
> operate normally for one year, to allow project owners ample time to
> plan the migration of active projects. While no other changes are
> being made to the Kenai.com site at this time, we are still not
> accepting new projects.
>
> If you have questions please send them to the Kenai.com site administrator.
> //////
>
> FC
>
> FC
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ibm-netrexx mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/
>

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[ThSITC]

Hi Kermit, and all:

I *think* we shall have a little fight on this issue.

A Language is as good as their features are, compared to other similiar
Languages.

I have been grown up with 4th Generation Languages, running on Mark III,
General Electric's Time sharing
systems, some 30 Years ago.

In those times, using DMS (GE's DataManagement system), or EURO:LOGOS
(my own invention), I could write:

FOR ALL EMPL
     PRINT WHOLE EMPL

and, with the given HIERARCHIC Database, I got a nice report, pretty
good looking.

What PRINT did do was:

     -- collecting all Data in an intermediate file
     -- detecting the maximum SIZE of any member
     -- determining a proper Format of the Printout
     -- etc, etc etc

Compared to those approaches, Object Oriented Languages are simply POOR !!!

Ok?
Thomas Schneider.

PS: PRINT WHOLE EMPL did force to go thru all (Hierarchic) Dependencies
Those Days.

Does look for me as a predecessor of a *HUMAN ORIENTED LANGUAGE*, I
think ;-)
===============================================================================

Am 27/10/2015 um 08:52 schrieb Kermit Kiser:

> Thomas --
>
> The "features" you mention were rejected on the issue tracker not "due
> to lack of action" but because they are harmful to the NetRexx
> language for the following reasons:
>
> 1) The requested new instructions would add unneeded complication to
> NetRexx syntax and make it harder to learn than it needs to be.
> 2) The requested new instructions offer NO benefit over using the
> existing object library call mechanisms: myreport=REPORT(x,y,z),
> myreport.print(a,b,c) etc.
> 3) Each programmer or application would require a unique set of these
> functions therefore they must be library routines rather than core
> language features.
> 4) The functionality approach requested is NOT object oriented like
> NetRexx but is an ancient "report writer" concept. This difference in
> report concepts is discussed in the Object programming intro section
> of the Object Rexx reference doc.
> 5) No such syntax exists in classical or Object Rexx as it is NOT useful.
>
> If you add them to Kenai again they will be rejected again.
>
> -- Kermit
>
> On 2015-10-26 10:26 AM, Thomas Schneider wrote:
>> Hi Kermit, Rene, and all,
>>
>> I did, long time ago, propose some new features for IBM-NetRexx like
>> REPORT, PRINT, TITLE, FOOTING
>> as well as simple support for SCREEN I/O like SHOW, DISPLAY, ACCEPT etc.
>>
>> I did specify those on KENAI, as I thought this is the *discussion
>> Forum* for the NetRexx ARB.
>>
>> Unfortunately, all those *ideas* heve been deleted (due to lack of
>> action).
>>
>> Any chance, to get them back on KENAI ?
>> Thomas.
>>
>> PS: I do now have the RUN-TIME Routines ready for this, I think, but
>> am reluctant
>> to change the NetRexx Compiler without former approval of the NetRexx
>> ARB.
>>
>>
>>
>

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[Dave Woodman]

Hi Thomas,

What we say in the UK is "horses for courses" - by which we mean that
something may be suited to one purpose, but not another.

NetRexx IS an object-oriented language, by definition - if that means that
it does not fulfil the purposes of a particular reporting paradigm, then so
be it.

We do not have a "universal language" on our hands, and any attempt to make
it so would probably be an infinite effort. What we do have is a good
general-purpose - you can use it to do what you want, I can use it for what
I want.

Let us not modify the language to suit a particular expectation of what it
will be used for, and reduce its scope. Let us instead concentrate on making
it as widely usable as possible.

            Dave.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Thomas Schneider
Sent: 27 October 2015 13:03
To: Kermit Kiser <[hidden email]>
Cc: IBM Netrexx <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] New Features for IBM NetRexx vs. 4.xx

Hi Kermit, and all:

I *think* we shall have a little fight on this issue.

A Language is as good as their features are, compared to other similiar
Languages.

I have been grown up with 4th Generation Languages, running on Mark III,
General Electric's Time sharing systems, some 30 Years ago.

In those times, using DMS (GE's DataManagement system), or EURO:LOGOS (my
own invention), I could write:

FOR ALL EMPL
     PRINT WHOLE EMPL

and, with the given HIERARCHIC Database, I got a nice report, pretty good
looking.

What PRINT did do was:

     -- collecting all Data in an intermediate file
     -- detecting the maximum SIZE of any member
     -- determining a proper Format of the Printout
     -- etc, etc etc

Compared to those approaches, Object Oriented Languages are simply POOR !!!

Ok?
Thomas Schneider.

PS: PRINT WHOLE EMPL did force to go thru all (Hierarchic) Dependencies
Those Days.

Does look for me as a predecessor of a *HUMAN ORIENTED LANGUAGE*, I think
;-)
============================================================================
===

Am 27/10/2015 um 08:52 schrieb Kermit Kiser:

> Thomas --
>
> The "features" you mention were rejected on the issue tracker not "due
> to lack of action" but because they are harmful to the NetRexx
> language for the following reasons:
>
> 1) The requested new instructions would add unneeded complication to
> NetRexx syntax and make it harder to learn than it needs to be.
> 2) The requested new instructions offer NO benefit over using the
> existing object library call mechanisms: myreport=REPORT(x,y,z),
> myreport.print(a,b,c) etc.
> 3) Each programmer or application would require a unique set of these
> functions therefore they must be library routines rather than core
> language features.
> 4) The functionality approach requested is NOT object oriented like
> NetRexx but is an ancient "report writer" concept. This difference in
> report concepts is discussed in the Object programming intro section
> of the Object Rexx reference doc.
> 5) No such syntax exists in classical or Object Rexx as it is NOT useful.
>
> If you add them to Kenai again they will be rejected again.
>
> -- Kermit
>
> On 2015-10-26 10:26 AM, Thomas Schneider wrote:
>> Hi Kermit, Rene, and all,
>>
>> I did, long time ago, propose some new features for IBM-NetRexx like
>> REPORT, PRINT, TITLE, FOOTING as well as simple support for SCREEN
>> I/O like SHOW, DISPLAY, ACCEPT etc.
>>
>> I did specify those on KENAI, as I thought this is the *discussion
>> Forum* for the NetRexx ARB.
>>
>> Unfortunately, all those *ideas* heve been deleted (due to lack of
>> action).
>>
>> Any chance, to get them back on KENAI ?
>> Thomas.
>>
>> PS: I do now have the RUN-TIME Routines ready for this, I think, but
>> am reluctant to change the NetRexx Compiler without former approval
>> of the NetRexx ARB.
>>
>>
>>
>

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[Fernando Cassia-2]

On 10/27/15, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> We were promised a migration to java.net that up until now has not
> materialized.
>
> Saludos
> David Requena / Gmail

Oracle is sadly shutting down the Kenai back end along with the two
similar sites it hosts, Java.net and Kenai.com.

/////
September 25, 2015

Changes are coming to Java.net! In the coming months we will be
migrating our community content (editorial articles, blogs, forums) to
the Java community space. We're also working on a complete redesign of
that space and you should be seeing the results in early October.

If you have content in our blogs, articles, or forums, or if you've
joined in the last year, we will attempt to migrate your account into
the new platform. If you already have an Oracle account, please
confirm that your handle and email address agree on both platforms.

We will also be closing the forge in the next 18-24 months. We are
working on a process to allow project owners to take delivery of their
project assets and request a redirect to the new home of their choice.
Once we have that process in place, we will update this announcement
and notify project owners. From the date we have a process available
to make all project assets available to owners, the forge will
continue to operate normally for one year, to allow project owners
ample time to plan the migration of active projects.

While no other changes are being made to the forge at this time, we
are no longer accepting new projects. If you have questions please
send them to [hidden email].
///
FC

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[ThSITC]

Hi Dave: accepted Your Concerns.

However: I did like the past behaviour (4GL Languages) much more....
Sorry to say,
Thomas.
===========================================================

Am 27/10/2015 um 14:55 schrieb Dave Woodman:

> Hi Thomas,
>
> What we say in the UK is "horses for courses" - by which we mean that
> something may be suited to one purpose, but not another.
>
> NetRexx IS an object-oriented language, by definition - if that means that
> it does not fulfil the purposes of a particular reporting paradigm, then so
> be it.
>
> We do not have a "universal language" on our hands, and any attempt to make
> it so would probably be an infinite effort. What we do have is a good
> general-purpose - you can use it to do what you want, I can use it for what
> I want.
>
> Let us not modify the language to suit a particular expectation of what it
> will be used for, and reduce its scope. Let us instead concentrate on making
> it as widely usable as possible.
>
>              Dave.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Thomas Schneider
> Sent: 27 October 2015 13:03
> To: Kermit Kiser <[hidden email]>
> Cc: IBM Netrexx <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] New Features for IBM NetRexx vs. 4.xx
>
> Hi Kermit, and all:
>
> I *think* we shall have a little fight on this issue.
>
> A Language is as good as their features are, compared to other similiar
> Languages.
>
> I have been grown up with 4th Generation Languages, running on Mark III,
> General Electric's Time sharing systems, some 30 Years ago.
>
> In those times, using DMS (GE's DataManagement system), or EURO:LOGOS (my
> own invention), I could write:
>
> FOR ALL EMPL
>       PRINT WHOLE EMPL
>
> and, with the given HIERARCHIC Database, I got a nice report, pretty good
> looking.
>
> What PRINT did do was:
>
>       -- collecting all Data in an intermediate file
>       -- detecting the maximum SIZE of any member
>       -- determining a proper Format of the Printout
>       -- etc, etc etc
>
> Compared to those approaches, Object Oriented Languages are simply POOR !!!
>
> Ok?
> Thomas Schneider.
>
> PS: PRINT WHOLE EMPL did force to go thru all (Hierarchic) Dependencies
> Those Days.
>
> Does look for me as a predecessor of a *HUMAN ORIENTED LANGUAGE*, I think
> ;-)
> ============================================================================
> ===
>
> Am 27/10/2015 um 08:52 schrieb Kermit Kiser:
>> Thomas --
>>
>> The "features" you mention were rejected on the issue tracker not "due
>> to lack of action" but because they are harmful to the NetRexx
>> language for the following reasons:
>>
>> 1) The requested new instructions would add unneeded complication to
>> NetRexx syntax and make it harder to learn than it needs to be.
>> 2) The requested new instructions offer NO benefit over using the
>> existing object library call mechanisms: myreport=REPORT(x,y,z),
>> myreport.print(a,b,c) etc.
>> 3) Each programmer or application would require a unique set of these
>> functions therefore they must be library routines rather than core
>> language features.
>> 4) The functionality approach requested is NOT object oriented like
>> NetRexx but is an ancient "report writer" concept. This difference in
>> report concepts is discussed in the Object programming intro section
>> of the Object Rexx reference doc.
>> 5) No such syntax exists in classical or Object Rexx as it is NOT useful.
>>
>> If you add them to Kenai again they will be rejected again.
>>
>> -- Kermit
>>
>> On 2015-10-26 10:26 AM, Thomas Schneider wrote:
>>> Hi Kermit, Rene, and all,
>>>
>>> I did, long time ago, propose some new features for IBM-NetRexx like
>>> REPORT, PRINT, TITLE, FOOTING as well as simple support for SCREEN
>>> I/O like SHOW, DISPLAY, ACCEPT etc.
>>>
>>> I did specify those on KENAI, as I thought this is the *discussion
>>> Forum* for the NetRexx ARB.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, all those *ideas* heve been deleted (due to lack of
>>> action).
>>>
>>> Any chance, to get them back on KENAI ?
>>> Thomas.
>>>
>>> PS: I do now have the RUN-TIME Routines ready for this, I think, but
>>> am reluctant to change the NetRexx Compiler without former approval
>>> of the NetRexx ARB.
>>>
>>>
>>>
> _______________________________________________
> Ibm-netrexx mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/
>

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