Proposed NetRexx download site

[Tom Maynard]

Of late I've fallen in with a crowd of developers of several stripes (Java, Groovy, Scala, Clojure, ..., but also Vim plugins, and a host of uncategorized subjects).  While there are some exceptions, the vast majority of these folks use Github, both as their SVN, and as their public distribution tool and project home:

https://github.com/

I'm proposing that NetRexx (the group and the language) use Github as the download source of choice (it could still remain on NetRexx.org ... but dual distributions can cause synchronization slipups).  If it were there, anyone (with Git installed ... available everywhere) can grab/refresh a copy at any time (e.g.):

$ git clone http(s)://github.com/netrexx/netrexx.git

Which could be followed by Maven or Ant build steps, to build from source ... or just take the binaries and run.

Naturally, I'm not tied to the idea, it's just a suggestion -- but one that's convenient for both developers and users (Thomas, e.g., could fork his own version to add all manner of individual language changes).  If you explore Github a bit you'll get the idea quickly:

https://github.com/explore

It's something to consider, at least.
Tom.


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[George Hovey-2]

It would seem helpful to distribute NetRexx in a way familiar to other developers.  Github has some impressive customers.

On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Tom Maynard <[hidden email]> wrote:

Of late I've fallen in with a crowd of developers of several stripes (Java, Groovy, Scala, Clojure, ..., but also Vim plugins, and a host of uncategorized subjects).  While there are some exceptions, the vast majority of these folks use Github, both as their SVN, and as their public distribution tool and project home:

https://github.com/

I'm proposing that NetRexx (the group and the language) use Github as the download source of choice (it could still remain on NetRexx.org ... but dual distributions can cause synchronization slipups).  If it were there, anyone (with Git installed ... available everywhere) can grab/refresh a copy at any time (e.g.):

$ git clone http(s)://github.com/netrexx/netrexx.git

Which could be followed by Maven or Ant build steps, to build from source ... or just take the binaries and run.

Naturally, I'm not tied to the idea, it's just a suggestion -- but one that's convenient for both developers and users (Thomas, e.g., could fork his own version to add all manner of individual language changes).  If you explore Github a bit you'll get the idea quickly:

https://github.com/explore

It's something to consider, at least.
Tom.

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[Tom Maynard]

On 05/29/2012 10:44 AM, George Hovey wrote:
> Github has some impressive customers.

Indeed.  Git was originally developed by Linus Torvalds for Linux kernel
development because he was dissatisfied with existing source code
management tools: simple, fast, lightweight, etc.

Tom.

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[rvjansen]

Tom,

it is something I was also thinking of lately, having moved some if not most of my own repositories to git. I like its speed and philosophy.

Kenai was chosen because of the awkwardness and ever changing menus of SourceForge, and because of the fact that David Requena had a lot of experience in managing repositories on Kenai. Later, however, it turned out that (because of changes at SUN/Oracle?) there is not much support for Kenai, for example in elimination of bouncing emails and other things.

A move would not be the first item on my agenda, but I suggest that you propose a vote on the developer's list, and maybe perhaps even here, for the consumers of the code. Then we need to check if everything we now use is there - the wiki comes to mind - and find someone to execute the change, on a well published moment. 

You might know that there is a slight problem in moving history from svn to git. Due to the difference in approach to the storage of delta's, repositories might grow impressively during a history conversion - and the right options to counter this must be researched. Recently, the Hercules project has suffered this, and it was not good for the continuity of the software and/or its development. But this should be taken into account and should not be a deterrent when properly countered.

best regards,

René.

On 29 mei 2012, at 11:07, Tom Maynard wrote:

Of late I've fallen in with a crowd of developers of several stripes (Java, Groovy, Scala, Clojure, ..., but also Vim plugins, and a host of uncategorized subjects).  While there are some exceptions, the vast majority of these folks use Github, both as their SVN, and as their public distribution tool and project home:

https://github.com/

I'm proposing that NetRexx (the group and the language) use Github as the download source of choice (it could still remain on NetRexx.org ... but dual distributions can cause synchronization slipups).  If it were there, anyone (with Git installed ... available everywhere) can grab/refresh a copy at any time (e.g.):

$ git clone http(s)://github.com/netrexx/netrexx.git

Which could be followed by Maven or Ant build steps, to build from source ... or just take the binaries and run.

Naturally, I'm not tied to the idea, it's just a suggestion -- but one that's convenient for both developers and users (Thomas, e.g., could fork his own version to add all manner of individual language changes).  If you explore Github a bit you'll get the idea quickly:

https://github.com/explore

It's something to consider, at least.
Tom.

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[ThSITC]

Hi Tom Maynard (brother in pre-name).

a) I can not say anything to the comments you did raise... Far to way to know those details you're knowing, obvioulsy. Thanks so much for the links!

b) As far as my 1 Gangle brain serves right, you did invest time to develop
a Netrexx Installer (in NetRexx). Is this,your, Installer now completed ?

c) when yes or no as the answer to usual question above, could you please send me a private copy, again, with the most recent version.

I *perfectly* could need it, for my own releases now coming up.

*and*

I will definitely *not* change to GitHub, or whatever, as I'm just completing
to leanr SVN there on Kenai (for the org.netrexx andother stuff from my shop)

Anyway, Tom, thnks for the frank info :-)
Thomas.
=========================================================
 
Am 29.05.2012 17:07, schrieb Tom Maynard:

Of late I've fallen in with a crowd of developers of several stripes (Java, Groovy, Scala, Clojure, ..., but also Vim plugins, and a host of uncategorized subjects).  While there are some exceptions, the vast majority of these folks use Github, both as their SVN, and as their public distribution tool and project home:

https://github.com/

I'm proposing that NetRexx (the group and the language) use Github as the download source of choice (it could still remain on NetRexx.org ... but dual distributions can cause synchronization slipups).  If it were there, anyone (with Git installed ... available everywhere) can grab/refresh a copy at any time (e.g.):

$ git clone http(s)://github.com/netrexx/netrexx.git

Which could be followed by Maven or Ant build steps, to build from source ... or just take the binaries and run.

Naturally, I'm not tied to the idea, it's just a suggestion -- but one that's convenient for both developers and users (Thomas, e.g., could fork his own version to add all manner of individual language changes).  If you explore Github a bit you'll get the idea quickly:

https://github.com/explore

It's something to consider, at least.
Tom.

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[Tom Maynard]

On 05/29/2012 11:28 AM, Thomas Schneider wrote:

a Netrexx Installer (in NetRexx). Is this,your, Installer now completed ?

(A) "My" installer is not "in NetRexx".  It uses IzPack ( http://izpack.org/).
(B) While it is in a working (and tested) state, it is not completed

It does work, and will install NetRexx ... but does nothing about the JVM.  René has suggested bundling the Eclipse compiler, and that can be done, but I've spent no time on the project recently.

Further, there are several "loose ends" that need to be addressed before it's ready for general release.  And, if memory serves, I've already provided you with a copy around/about Christmas time last year when it was first "ready."  (Where "provided" means "given you a link to it on Dropbox.")

The loose ends require input from further up the organizational tree than my lowly position can supply.  Besides, those details should likely wait until a newer installer is ready for testing.

HTH,
Tom.


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[Kermit Kiser]

René --

There seem to be several issues, perhaps overlapping, being discussed here:

1) Which repository service should we use? According to Wikipedia, Kenai actually supports git repositories, so the issue of moving to a different server has to be dependent on other factors such as the wiki and email support issues you mentioned or Oracle's plans to eliminate Kenai in favor of java.net by the end of the year, etc. We will soon be forced to move somewhere other than Project Kenai!

2) Which type of repository should we use? I don't know much about Git but apparently it works fine with an SVN master repository. The same is true of Bazaar which some people claim is a better revision control system than Git. I don't think the reverse is generally true although GitHub claims to support SVN clients now. Thus, changing repository type may be a problem for those of us who only know SVN and use SVN tools. Learning a new system and tools is not impossible but definitely will cause a slowdown in development for a while, especially for those like Thomas who are just now learning SVN. Regardless of whether developers use SVN or a distributed revision system like Git or Bazaar, we will still need a centralized repository for the "official" releases of NetRexx.

3) Which client software should we use for revision control? As I mentioned above, Git and Bazaar clients work with SVN repositories and SVN clients may work with GitHub, so there is some flexibility. I see that as important because SVN has been around a few years longer than Git and the client tools are more mature. At the same time, SVN is not as ancient and primitive as CVS so it is still a reasonable compromise. While many active projects have switched to distributed rcs systems like Git, popularity is not as important a factor as flexibility (more choices) in my opinion. And while performance is an issue, I have not noticed any problems with SVN speed on our current repository and using a Git client with an SVN repository eliminates most of the performance issues anyway according to what I have read.

In summary: (1) We need to move the repository this year. (2) We need to maintain SVN client compatibility. (3) Given those items, choice of repository service may depend on other factors some of which may not be obvious until we try the service. 

Here is a comparison of available repositories:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_open_source_software_hosting_facilities

I suggest we setup a GitHub repository and test it although it does not seem to offer mailing lists, so we might lose the dev and bug lists.

Does anyone else see a good alternative?

-- Kermit

On 5/29/2012 9:00 AM, René Jansen wrote:

Tom,

it is something I was also thinking of lately, having moved some if not most of my own repositories to git. I like its speed and philosophy.

Kenai was chosen because of the awkwardness and ever changing menus of SourceForge, and because of the fact that David Requena had a lot of experience in managing repositories on Kenai. Later, however, it turned out that (because of changes at SUN/Oracle?) there is not much support for Kenai, for example in elimination of bouncing emails and other things.

A move would not be the first item on my agenda, but I suggest that you propose a vote on the developer's list, and maybe perhaps even here, for the consumers of the code. Then we need to check if everything we now use is there - the wiki comes to mind - and find someone to execute the change, on a well published moment. 

You might know that there is a slight problem in moving history from svn to git. Due to the difference in approach to the storage of delta's, repositories might grow impressively during a history conversion - and the right options to counter this must be researched. Recently, the Hercules project has suffered this, and it was not good for the continuity of the software and/or its development. But this should be taken into account and should not be a deterrent when properly countered.

best regards,

René.

On 29 mei 2012, at 11:07, Tom Maynard wrote:

Of late I've fallen in with a crowd of developers of several stripes (Java, Groovy, Scala, Clojure, ..., but also Vim plugins, and a host of uncategorized subjects).  While there are some exceptions, the vast majority of these folks use Github, both as their SVN, and as their public distribution tool and project home:

https://github.com/

I'm proposing that NetRexx (the group and the language) use Github as the download source of choice (it could still remain on NetRexx.org ... but dual distributions can cause synchronization slipups).  If it were there, anyone (with Git installed ... available everywhere) can grab/refresh a copy at any time (e.g.):

$ git clone http(s)://github.com/netrexx/netrexx.git

Which could be followed by Maven or Ant build steps, to build from source ... or just take the binaries and run.

Naturally, I'm not tied to the idea, it's just a suggestion -- but one that's convenient for both developers and users (Thomas, e.g., could fork his own version to add all manner of individual language changes).  If you explore Github a bit you'll get the idea quickly:

https://github.com/explore

It's something to consider, at least.
Tom.

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[ThSITC]

Hi Tom,
   I do still have this the private copy you did send me on my desk.
Only wonderered, as I did see your name popping up, if it's now finished and actually used to Install Netrexx...
... curoius, as I'm always trying to be.

Cracy uncle Thomas.
======================================================= 
Am 29.05.2012 19:08, schrieb Tom Maynard:

On 05/29/2012 11:28 AM, Thomas Schneider wrote:

a Netrexx Installer (in NetRexx). Is this,your, Installer now completed ?

(A) "My" installer is not "in NetRexx".  It uses IzPack ( http://izpack.org/).
(B) While it is in a working (and tested) state, it is not completed

It does work, and will install NetRexx ... but does nothing about the JVM.  René has suggested bundling the Eclipse compiler, and that can be done, but I've spent no time on the project recently.

Further, there are several "loose ends" that need to be addressed before it's ready for general release.  And, if memory serves, I've already provided you with a copy around/about Christmas time last year when it was first "ready."  (Where "provided" means "given you a link to it on Dropbox.")

The loose ends require input from further up the organizational tree than my lowly position can supply.  Besides, those details should likely wait until a newer installer is ready for testing.

HTH,
Tom.

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[George Hovey-2]

Kermit,
You remark

"Regardless of whether developers use SVN or a distributed revision system like Git or Bazaar, we will still need a centralized repository for the "official" releases of NetRexx."

Do you mean that these issues (development vs release) are separable?   If so, then the one users see has marketing  implications.  Depending on who the target audience is -- this has been discussed in the hazy past (I vaguely remember something about "drive by shooters") but I can't remember any definitive conclusion -- we may or may not want to stress NetRexx's dependency on Java.   As we've seen, this point is controversial even here.

Kenai/Java.net plainly says "Java."

On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Thomas Schneider <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Tom,
   I do still have this the private copy you did send me on my desk.
Only wonderered, as I did see your name popping up, if it's now finished and actually used to Install Netrexx...
... curoius, as I'm always trying to be.

Cracy uncle Thomas.
======================================================= 
Am 29.05.2012 19:08, schrieb Tom Maynard:

On 05/29/2012 11:28 AM, Thomas Schneider wrote:

a Netrexx Installer (in NetRexx). Is this,your, Installer now completed ?

(A) "My" installer is not "in NetRexx".  It uses IzPack ( http://izpack.org/).
(B) While it is in a working (and tested) state, it is not completed

It does work, and will install NetRexx ... but does nothing about the JVM.  René has suggested bundling the Eclipse compiler, and that can be done, but I've spent no time on the project recently.

Further, there are several "loose ends" that need to be addressed before it's ready for general release.  And, if memory serves, I've already provided you with a copy around/about Christmas time last year when it was first "ready."  (Where "provided" means "given you a link to it on Dropbox.")

The loose ends require input from further up the organizational tree than my lowly position can supply.  Besides, those details should likely wait until a newer installer is ready for testing.

HTH,
Tom.

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[Fernando Cassia-2]

On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 12:07 PM, Tom Maynard <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm proposing that NetRexx (the group and the language) use Github as the download source of choice (it could still remain on NetRexx.org ... but dual distributions can cause synchronization slipups). 

Does it have a network of international download mirrors like SourceForge.net so that users always get the download from the nearest mirror?. That´s what I like about SF.net.

I also like the ability to create mailing lists via mailman.

But then, that´s me. :)

FC

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[Tom Maynard]

On 05/29/2012 04:35 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote:
> Does it have a network of international download mirrors like...

My relationship with Git and Github is purely as a leech: I grab stuff
and don't contribute anything.  I'm better at Torrents, where at least I
do seed a bit here and there.

As such, I can't answer your questions (or Kermit's, or René's, or
...).  Clearly I need to do some duck arranging here.  My proposal was
only a suggestion, and I confess that I hadn't done any "homework" to
back it up as a serious alternative.

Wiki: http://goo.gl/xh44U

And, my proposal was inspired by the simple fact that I've cloned a
dozen or two packages just recently, and that its usage seemed pretty
pervasive, at least among the fringe developers whose work I tend to use.

Tom.

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[Fernando Cassia-2]

On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Tom Maynard <[hidden email]> wrote:

My proposal was only a suggestion, and I confess that I hadn't done any "homework" to back it up as a serious alternative.

Sorry Tom, I didn't mean to attack your suggestion. It sounds a valid cloud based development platform.

However, I see too often people disregard SourceForge.net just because "Google Code or github is the new thing", while these (imho) lack some features that are SourceForge's hidden gems (they don't promote those much either): traditional mailing lists, ssh access, and a network of international download mirrors (that is more of use for large binaries, I reckon, and in the case of NetRexx it is so small that very few people would care even if if it's hosted in Iceland or Thailand for that matter).

I just have had a good experience with SourceForge.net and would hate to see it fall from grace just because everyone is talking about Google Code or github. :)

Just my $0.02. For me, it's fine if you choose github or google code or something else. Whatever you guys choose is fine. Just check out the SF.net feature set too.

FC
--
During times of Universal Deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act
- George Orwell


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[Tom Maynard]

On 05/29/2012 06:15 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote:
> Sorry Tom, I didn't mean to attack your suggestion

No worries!  I didn't take your input as an attack in any sense of the
word -- and I wasn't (intentionally) being defensive ... just honest.

I was a leech on Sourceforge for a very, very long time, too -- and
still am when I need a fresh copy of ooRexx.

Like you, I really have no position regarding whatever direction NetRexx
chooses to go.

73, Tom.

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[ThSITC]

Hi Tom,
    1.) I'm *following* this conversation with much interest, as it
might also strongly influence the decisions I'll have to do for my own
soft releases coming out (you won't trust it: coming out!)
    2.) What is a *leech* ? Cannot find it in my english/german
dictionary. maybe a bad one ?

Thomas.
==================================================
Am 30.05.2012 01:02, schrieb Tom Maynard:

> On 05/29/2012 04:35 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote:
>> Does it have a network of international download mirrors like...
>
> My relationship with Git and Github is purely as a leech: I grab stuff
> and don't contribute anything.  I'm better at Torrents, where at least
> I do seed a bit here and there.
>
> As such, I can't answer your questions (or Kermit's, or René's, or
> ...).  Clearly I need to do some duck arranging here.  My proposal was
> only a suggestion, and I confess that I hadn't done any "homework" to
> back it up as a serious alternative.
>
> Wiki: http://goo.gl/xh44U
>
> And, my proposal was inspired by the simple fact that I've cloned a
> dozen or two packages just recently, and that its usage seemed pretty
> pervasive, at least among the fringe developers whose work I tend to use.
>
> Tom.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ibm-netrexx mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/
>
>

--
Thomas Schneider (Founder of www.thsitc.com) Member of the Rexx Languge
Asscociation (www.rexxla.org) Member of the NetRexx Developer's Team
(www.netrexx.org)

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[kenner]

Blut-saugendes tierchen. leach

Thomas Schneider <[hidden email]>
Sent by: [hidden email]

05/30/2012 11:18 AM

Please respond to
IBM Netrexx <[hidden email]>

To	IBM Netrexx <[hidden email]>
cc
Subject	Re: [Ibm-netrexx] Proposed NetRexx download site

Hi Tom,
   1.) I'm *following* this conversation with much interest, as it
might also strongly influence the decisions I'll have to do for my own
soft releases coming out (you won't trust it: coming out!)
   2.) What is a *leech* ? Cannot find it in my english/german
dictionary. maybe a bad one ?

Thomas.
==================================================
Am 30.05.2012 01:02, schrieb Tom Maynard:
> On 05/29/2012 04:35 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote:
>> Does it have a network of international download mirrors like...
>
> My relationship with Git and Github is purely as a leech: I grab stuff
> and don't contribute anything.  I'm better at Torrents, where at least
> I do seed a bit here and there.
>
> As such, I can't answer your questions (or Kermit's, or René's, or
> ...).  Clearly I need to do some duck arranging here.  My proposal was
> only a suggestion, and I confess that I hadn't done any "homework" to
> back it up as a serious alternative.
>
> Wiki: http://goo.gl/xh44U
>
> And, my proposal was inspired by the simple fact that I've cloned a
> dozen or two packages just recently, and that its usage seemed pretty
> pervasive, at least among the fringe developers whose work I tend to use.
>
> Tom.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ibm-netrexx mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/
>
>


--
Thomas Schneider (Founder of www.thsitc.com) Member of the Rexx Languge
Asscociation (www.rexxla.org) Member of the NetRexx Developer's Team
(www.netrexx.org)

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[Tom Maynard]

On 05/30/2012 10:18 AM, Thomas Schneider wrote:

What is a *leech* ? Cannot find it

As always, Thomas: Google is your friend.  I believe the first definition (saugen) is the one I meant.

Tom.


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[ThSITC]

Hi Tom,
   1.) thanks for reminder (tat google is my friend)
   2.) You might also want to look at www.dict.cc *or* any other ot the many online dictionaries.

It seems to be my behaviour that I'm asking the group (just to create some traffic ??) ;-)

Thomas.
======================================================= .
  
Am 30.05.2012 18:38, schrieb Tom Maynard:

On 05/30/2012 10:18 AM, Thomas Schneider wrote:

What is a *leech* ? Cannot find it

As always, Thomas: Google is your friend.  I believe the first definition (saugen) is the one I meant.

Tom.

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