RC1 License file

[billfen]

I'm done with this topic but have a few final words - I'll let others have
the last say if they want.

The actual body of the ICU 1.8.1 license permission statement is only one
long sentence, containing 93 words by my count.  Here (again), is the link
(below).  Please take a minute and read it.

Skip the first 61 words starting "Permission ..." (they pretty much say "if
you have this, do what you want").  Start with ", provided that ...".  To
understand what I am saying, please read and understand those 32 words.
It's not that difficult, really!

http://icu-project.org/repos/icu/icu/trunk/license.html

Now obviously I don't know what did or did not go on between RexxLA (Rene)
and IBM legal, but I do know that IF the NetRexx software was transmitted
to RexxLA along with a copy of the ICU 1.8.1 license or a clear
understanding that the ICU 1.8.1 license applied, then RexxLA is in clear
violation.  

Just read what the license says!  Note the 4 words "the above copyright
notice(s)"!

If IBM did not convey the software to RexxLA with a clear specification
that the ICU license applied and omitted a copy of the license, then the
ICU license does not apply and all of this discussion is moot.  But based
on the discussions, I assume that indeed IBM did convey the software to
RexxLA with the understanding that the ICU license applied, weather or not
they included an actual copy of the license.

Look, I'm just trying to prevent what some will see as an obvious blunder
on the part of RexxLA.  Again, please forget all the discussion, and Don't
accept or believe what I've said on face value.  Just read what the license
says, and compare that with what is actually being distributed!

Now as Mike pointed out, the US finally adopted the Berne Convention in
1989, some 93 years after its establishment.  Under that agreement, it is
true that no explicit copyright notice is necessary to establish copyright
ownership.

But it is also true that under US law, defense of a copyright is difficult
or impossible without an explicit copyright statement, and in no case can
actual damages be awarded unless the copyright is registered.

If explicit copyright statements are unnecessary, why is it that
essentially every book, movie, CD, etc. contains an explicit copyright
statement?  It's to allow the defense of the copyright, not to establish it.

With that in mind, I still would be be surprised if IBM has changed their
stance on copyrights in significantly important code, and no doubt always
has a copyright included with licenses and documentation.

It all boils down to if the IP is worth protecting.  By conveying the
software to RexxLA with the ICU license, IBM is saying it is, and requires
that their copyright notice be distributed with the software.  RexxLA is
required to do that, and is not in the case of the executable jars.

My final advice yet again (and for the final time), just include the da*ned
Full ICU 1.8.1 License VERBATIM and include the RexxLA copyright in it!!

If anyone wishes to discuss it further with me, please do it offline.

Bill


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[Aviatrexx]

On 9/14/11 00:22 [hidden email] said:
> I'm done with this topic but have a few final words - I'll let others have
> the last say if they want.

Thank you Bill, I do have a little something I'd like to say.

Despite Bill's request to take this topic offline, I feel that I must
place the following Motion before the NetRexx community:

"Insofar as Bill Fenlason has done quite a bit of research into the
issues involved, and

Insofar as he is the (only?) one who considers this an urgent matter
to be resolved, and

Insofar as René has much more pressing concerns,

Then Be It Resolved That:

Bill Fenlason be appointed the "NetRexx License Compliance Officer"
and afforded all the rights and responsibilities commensurate to the
office, as well as the phone number to the answering machine of the
IBM Legal Department."

I have a nearly identical Motion awaiting the next person who expends
copious bandwidth on the quality/scope/accuracy of the NetRexx (or
RexxLA) website, the lack of an idiosyncratic language feature that
would make your own software package so much easier to write, the lack
of a robust installer or suite of examples, or frankly, anything else
you think "someone" should provide or fix.

This is an Open Source Project.  We are the volunteer bazaar, not the
church-funded cathedral.  The success of the Project depends on the
contributions of those who care enough to put effort into it.

(In my family, you learned early on not to complain about a burnt out
lightbulb, or having no clean socks, or being hungry, unless you
wanted to learn a lot of good life-skills.)

As has been said before, there are plenty of issues that can be
addressed without any skills in NetRexx or Java.  Global publicity,
for example.  Testing, teaching, proof-reading, collecting links to
articles that reference NetRexx, et cetera ad infinitum.

Bill has already made a great contribution to NetRexx with his Eclipse
plug-in, so I'm sure René would have been too polite to make the point
that I have.  Everyone already knows that I'm a dyspeptic curmudgeon
with a low threshold for whining.

And while I'm at it, will everyone PLEASE stop hijacking thread
topics!  I had given up following this one for a few days while I was
teaching.  Then I discovered that René (who knows better) used it to
sneak in a questionnaire about this year's Rexx Symposium. :-/

Respectfully (if grumpily) submitted, of course,

-Chip-





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[ThSITC]

Hello Chip,
    I cannot comment at the Licence issue, as I'm fighting with Licence
issues currently as well, for my own soft.

  My only comment on this is: I *personally think* Bill is *right* !

  As far as the installer is concerned: I already DID actually propose
to WRITE this installer (as I did also open the ISSUE there at KENAI),
and am again proposing that I can do this part. I only would need a
reply from whoever
is responsible to this issue (on KENAI)., as I simply *want to avoid
DUPLICATE work* ...
   ... And I don't know whether somebody else already started on this
... :-(

Thomas Schneider.
==========================================================
Am 15.09.2011 19:10, schrieb Chip Davis:

> On 9/14/11 00:22 [hidden email] said:
>> I'm done with this topic but have a few final words - I'll let others
>> have
>> the last say if they want.
>
> Thank you Bill, I do have a little something I'd like to say.
>
> Despite Bill's request to take this topic offline, I feel that I must
> place the following Motion before the NetRexx community:
>
> "Insofar as Bill Fenlason has done quite a bit of research into the
> issues involved, and
>
> Insofar as he is the (only?) one who considers this an urgent matter
> to be resolved, and
>
> Insofar as René has much more pressing concerns,
>
> Then Be It Resolved That:
>
> Bill Fenlason be appointed the "NetRexx License Compliance Officer"
> and afforded all the rights and responsibilities commensurate to the
> office, as well as the phone number to the answering machine of the
> IBM Legal Department."
>
> I have a nearly identical Motion awaiting the next person who expends
> copious bandwidth on the quality/scope/accuracy of the NetRexx (or
> RexxLA) website, the lack of an idiosyncratic language feature that
> would make your own software package so much easier to write, the lack
> of a robust installer or suite of examples, or frankly, anything else
> you think "someone" should provide or fix.
>
> This is an Open Source Project.  We are the volunteer bazaar, not the
> church-funded cathedral.  The success of the Project depends on the
> contributions of those who care enough to put effort into it.
>
> (In my family, you learned early on not to complain about a burnt out
> lightbulb, or having no clean socks, or being hungry, unless you
> wanted to learn a lot of good life-skills.)
>
> As has been said before, there are plenty of issues that can be
> addressed without any skills in NetRexx or Java.  Global publicity,
> for example.  Testing, teaching, proof-reading, collecting links to
> articles that reference NetRexx, et cetera ad infinitum.
>
> Bill has already made a great contribution to NetRexx with his Eclipse
> plug-in, so I'm sure René would have been too polite to make the point
> that I have.  Everyone already knows that I'm a dyspeptic curmudgeon
> with a low threshold for whining.
>
> And while I'm at it, will everyone PLEASE stop hijacking thread
> topics!  I had given up following this one for a few days while I was
> teaching.  Then I discovered that René (who knows better) used it to
> sneak in a questionnaire about this year's Rexx Symposium. :-/
>
> Respectfully (if grumpily) submitted, of course,
>
> -Chip-
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ibm-netrexx mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/
>
>

--
Thomas Schneider (Founder of www.thsitc.com) Member of the Rexx Languge
Asscociation (www.rexxla.org) Member of the NetRexx Developer's Team
(www.netrexx.org)

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[alansam]

On 15 September 2011 10:47, Thomas Schneider <[hidden email]> wrote:

 As far as the installer is concerned: I already DID actually propose to WRITE this installer (as I did also open the ISSUE there at KENAI), and am again proposing that I can do this part. I only would need a reply from whoever
is responsible to this issue (on KENAI)., as I simply *want to avoid DUPLICATE work* ...
 ... And I don't know whether somebody else already started on this ... :-(

And here we go again... Thread topic hijacked!

--
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[Terry Fuller]

** Reply to message from René Jansen <[hidden email]> on Tue, 13 Sep 2011
23:24:15 +0200

René,

Julia & I will be there, just name the dates.

taf

> Thanks David.
>
> It is probably time we all met in person.
>
> If we were to organize a Rexx Language Symposium in December on Aruba, who
> would come? It needs to be on the US side of the world, we had two successive
> symposia in Europe already, and the only place I can organize it would be
> there.
>
> best regards,
>
> René.
>
> On 13 sep. 2011, at 21:25, David Requena wrote:
>
> > Bill, Thomas,
> >
> > Please, have a look at the project's wiki at Kenai. Particularly the pages titled 'Development process', 'Project charter' and 'Current Project Roles' should be of your interest.
> >
> > All this info has always been public.
> >
> > On the other hand I happen to be a RexxLA member since I think is 3 years now. I that time I've never become privy of any info about NetRexx, its open sourcing process or any other "insider info". There wasn't any insider info there.
> >
> > I've been known to speculate about an hypothetical NDA shutting involved individuals' lips even to the point of forbidding them to confirm such NDA existence. To this day I've not been able to confirm or refute that, RexxLA member or not.
> >
> > Please, stop bickering the RexxLA. One day I shelled out 24 bucks out of curiosity, liked it there, and stayed. Of course no one is forced in. Also, no one looses anything NetRexx by staying out.
> >
> > PD: Tried several times to watch "Eyes wide shut" but never succeeded even being a Kubrick fan. Heck, I guess masks and hoods are not my thing.
> >
> >
> > -
> > Saludos / Kind regards,
> > David Requena
> >
> > NOTE: The opinions expressed here represent the opinions
> > of the authors and do not necessarily represent the opinions
> > of those who hold other opinions.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> > Sender: [hidden email]
> > Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 14:50:09
> > To: <[hidden email]>
> > Reply-To: [hidden email], IBM Netrexx <[hidden email]>
> > Subject: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] RC1 License file
> >
> > Exactly why I refuse to join RexxLA - secret societies are not my thing.
> >
> > What's involved, sophomoric secret handshakes and masks or hoods in public?
> > Gang colors and graffiti?  Secret initiation rites full of religious
> > symbolism, rituals, torture and death threats?  
> >
> > Seriously, RexxLA claims to be a volunteer organization but it publishes no
> > charter or bylaws, and you have to pay dues to volunteer.  Just what is
> > RexxLA trying to hide, and how does it justify its secrecy?  I've asked
> > repeatedly in the past without an answer.  A little sunshine would go a
> > long way.
> >
> > Having open source managed by a secret society doesn't make sense to me,
> > but that's the way it is.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > On 9/13/2011 1:20 PM, Thomas Schneider wrote:
> >> When Mr. Rene Vincent Jansen, President of REXXLA, would
> >>
> >>   *not* tell this community, what
> >>
> >> a) the ARB is (personaly assumption: The Architecture Review Board) ??
> >> b) WHO the member's are
> >> c) What there mission is
> >> d) etc etc,
> >>
> >> *I will*, at the next REXXLA meeting, may it be in Vienna or anywhere
> > elsewhere,
> >>
> >> *ASK* my friend Rene Vincent Jansen
> >>
> >> ** some VERY HARD QUESTIONS ** !!
> >>
> >> *Trust me*
> >>
> >> and I'm cross-posting this to REXXLA, also I've promised to do NO
> > CROSS-Posting anymore..
> >>
> >> But I do personally think that we must have an OPEN DISCUSSION
> >> structure with the same entities (may it be classic Rexx, Open Object
> > Rexx,
> >> NetRexx) ....
> >>
> >> ... or Rey (how I do personally call their antecestor's)
> >>
> >> Sorry I did reply....
> >>
> >> Massa Thomas.
> >>
> >>
> >> Am 13.09.2011 18:36, schrieb Chip Davis:
> >>> On 9/12/11 14:27 Thomas Schneider said:
> >>>> By the way, Rene:
> >>>>
> >>>> WHO *are* the member's of the ARB?
> >>>
> >>> If he tells you, Thomas, they won't be anonymous any more.
> >>>
> >>> -Bgho-
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Ibm-netrexx mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > mail2web.com – What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you?
> > http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > [hidden email]
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> >
>
>
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--
Regards,
        taf

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[Aviatrexx]

On 9/15/11 18:10 Alan Sampson said:
> On 15 September 2011 10:47, Thomas Schneider wrote:
>>
>>      As far as the installer is concerned: ...
>
> And here we go again... Thread topic hijacked!

Didn't take long, did it?

-Chip-


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[ThSITC]

Hello Terry, David, Rene, and all:

  1.) I did (as I am) change the SUBJECT ;-) Sorry (oh: NOT sorry!) :-)
  2.) Aruba in DECEMBER: Great.

-- after GOOGLING MAP Aruba:

    I've never been there, but seem's to be a nice place (what I do know
from Venetia, Rene, and GOOGLE'd info's)

   3.) I did lie past day's that I never GOOGLE (sorry, again)
   4.) I would really like to meet you all.
   5.) When my (very limited BUDGET) will allow: I'll for sure, be there,
as I do hope to meet you all (first time, *or* again)
   6.) Rene, please do proceed with this plan *and* do fix a Date ASAP,
please!

Thanks in advance to you all,

Thomas Schneider (from dark, but currently LUCKY, Vienna)

PS: Something is going ON, don't know what it is, BUT it is getting
STRONGER! :-)
=======================================================



.


Am 15.09.2011 20:46, schrieb Terry Fuller:

> ** Reply to message from René Jansen<[hidden email]>  on Tue, 13 Sep 2011
> 23:24:15 +0200
>
> René,
>
> Julia&  I will be there, just name the dates.
>
> taf
>
>> Thanks David.
>>
>> It is probably time we all met in person.
>>
>> If we were to organize a Rexx Language Symposium in December on Aruba, who
>> would come? It needs to be on the US side of the world, we had two successive
>> symposia in Europe already, and the only place I can organize it would be
>> there.
>>
>> best regards,
>>
>> René.
>>
>> On 13 sep. 2011, at 21:25, David Requena wrote:
>>
>>> Bill, Thomas,
>>>
>>> Please, have a look at the project's wiki at Kenai. Particularly the pages titled 'Development process', 'Project charter' and 'Current Project Roles' should be of your interest.
>>>
>>> All this info has always been public.
>>>
>>> On the other hand I happen to be a RexxLA member since I think is 3 years now. I that time I've never become privy of any info about NetRexx, its open sourcing process or any other "insider info". There wasn't any insider info there.
>>>
>>> I've been known to speculate about an hypothetical NDA shutting involved individuals' lips even to the point of forbidding them to confirm such NDA existence. To this day I've not been able to confirm or refute that, RexxLA member or not.
>>>
>>> Please, stop bickering the RexxLA. One day I shelled out 24 bucks out of curiosity, liked it there, and stayed. Of course no one is forced in. Also, no one looses anything NetRexx by staying out.
>>>
>>> PD: Tried several times to watch "Eyes wide shut" but never succeeded even being a Kubrick fan. Heck, I guess masks and hoods are not my thing.
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Saludos / Kind regards,
>>> David Requena
>>>
>>> NOTE: The opinions expressed here represent the opinions
>>> of the authors and do not necessarily represent the opinions
>>> of those who hold other opinions.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: "[hidden email]"<[hidden email]>
>>> Sender: [hidden email]
>>> Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 14:50:09
>>> To:<[hidden email]>
>>> Reply-To: [hidden email], IBM Netrexx<[hidden email]>
>>> Subject: Re: [Ibm-netrexx] RC1 License file
>>>
>>> Exactly why I refuse to join RexxLA - secret societies are not my thing.
>>>
>>> What's involved, sophomoric secret handshakes and masks or hoods in public?
>>> Gang colors and graffiti?  Secret initiation rites full of religious
>>> symbolism, rituals, torture and death threats?
>>>
>>> Seriously, RexxLA claims to be a volunteer organization but it publishes no
>>> charter or bylaws, and you have to pay dues to volunteer.  Just what is
>>> RexxLA trying to hide, and how does it justify its secrecy?  I've asked
>>> repeatedly in the past without an answer.  A little sunshine would go a
>>> long way.
>>>
>>> Having open source managed by a secret society doesn't make sense to me,
>>> but that's the way it is.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>> On 9/13/2011 1:20 PM, Thomas Schneider wrote:
>>>> When Mr. Rene Vincent Jansen, President of REXXLA, would
>>>>
>>>>    *not* tell this community, what
>>>>
>>>> a) the ARB is (personaly assumption: The Architecture Review Board) ??
>>>> b) WHO the member's are
>>>> c) What there mission is
>>>> d) etc etc,
>>>>
>>>> *I will*, at the next REXXLA meeting, may it be in Vienna or anywhere
>>> elsewhere,
>>>> *ASK* my friend Rene Vincent Jansen
>>>>
>>>> ** some VERY HARD QUESTIONS ** !!
>>>>
>>>> *Trust me*
>>>>
>>>> and I'm cross-posting this to REXXLA, also I've promised to do NO
>>> CROSS-Posting anymore..
>>>> But I do personally think that we must have an OPEN DISCUSSION
>>>> structure with the same entities (may it be classic Rexx, Open Object
>>> Rexx,
>>>> NetRexx) ....
>>>>
>>>> ... or Rey (how I do personally call their antecestor's)
>>>>
>>>> Sorry I did reply....
>>>>
>>>> Massa Thomas.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 13.09.2011 18:36, schrieb Chip Davis:
>>>>> On 9/12/11 14:27 Thomas Schneider said:
>>>>>> By the way, Rene:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WHO *are* the member's of the ARB?
>>>>> If he tells you, Thomas, they won't be anonymous any more.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Bgho-
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Ibm-netrexx mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> mail2web.com – What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you?
>>> http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ibm-netrexx mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ibm-netrexx mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ibm-netrexx mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/

--
Thomas Schneider (Founder of www.thsitc.com) Member of the Rexx Languge
Asscociation (www.rexxla.org) Member of the NetRexx Developer's Team
(www.netrexx.org)

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[ThSITC]

Chip, Alan:

*it never takes LONG*

But I don't *understand* what *alan* means by *hijacked* !! :-(

Alan, please xplain!

Thanks in advance,

Thomas

(from currently *dark* ***Vienna*** (Austria, Europe, *our COMMON Earth*).
)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Am 15.09.2011 22:12, schrieb Chip Davis:

> On 9/15/11 18:10 Alan Sampson said:
>> On 15 September 2011 10:47, Thomas Schneider wrote:
>>>
>>>      As far as the installer is concerned: ...
>>
>> And here we go again... Thread topic hijacked!
>
> Didn't take long, did it?
>
> -Chip-
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ibm-netrexx mailing list
> [hidden email]
> Online Archive : http://ibm-netrexx.215625.n3.nabble.com/
>
>

--
Thomas Schneider (Founder of www.thsitc.com) Member of the Rexx Languge
Asscociation (www.rexxla.org) Member of the NetRexx Developer's Team
(www.netrexx.org)
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[alansam]

On 15 September 2011 14:09, Thomas Schneider <[hidden email]> wrote:

Chip, Alan:

*it never takes LONG*

But I don't *understand* what *alan* means by *hijacked* !! :-(

Thomas,

 

If you read the thread, it was Chip who originally asked that topics don't get hijacked.  Now; read the subject line and Chip's posting.  This thread starts off discussing the ICU licence and who should take ownership.  Tangentially, Chip mentions installers as an example to emphasize his point and you start discussing installers in this thread rather than starting a new one.  Thus taking the thread far off topic.

A.

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